Fossilized whale bone - legalized or not?

Francisco Vaz

Francisco Vaz

fvazknives.com
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
284
Hey guys, from all stabilized materials, i find whale bone the most fancy ones.

That being said, i ship all my knives internationally and from what i know whale bone is illegal in most places, except fossils, which are not.

The question is, anyone with experience could help me spotting HOW to identify if the whale bone is actually a fossil ? I would like to buy some from the supplier's image below but want to make sure i dont take any loss for not being able to make and ship the material over customs.

Thanks!


bt11.jpg
 
Francisco Vaz said:
Hey guys, from all stabilized materials, i find whale bone the most fancy ones.

That being said, i ship all my knives internationally and from what i know whale bone is illegal in most places, except fossils, which are not.

The question is, anyone with experience could help me spotting HOW to identify if the whale bone is actually a fossil ? I would like to buy some from the supplier's image below but want to make sure i dont take any loss for not being able to make and ship the material over customs.

Thanks!


View attachment 2094853
Click to expand...

In my experience, whether or not something gets taken in customs is pretty much up to whoever is on duty. I’ve had non-cites protected wood seized for suspicion of being protected wood (it was stabilized redwood 😡).
 
Fixall said:
In my experience, whether or not something gets taken in customs is pretty much up to whoever is on duty. I’ve had non-cites protected wood seized for suspicion of being protected wood (it was stabilized redwood 😡).
Click to expand...
what happened after? Wow.
 
This was my reply to Francisco:

Bom dia Francisco,
From a photograph it is hard to say if it is a fossil or not. It may be stabilized and dyed modern whale bone ... or older semi-fossilized material. That type of material is usually called "ancient bone", and isn't a true fossil, but falls in the same class as fossils legally. Actual ancient whale bone fossils are hard, heavy, and usually some shade of brown color.
With the color and fossil look of those scales, I think if you made a knife with it and sent it out with the import papers stating "Knife with Fossil Bone Handle" it would not be a problem. It would not hurt to pack with the knife a copy of a statement from the bone seller about the source and age of the fossils.
Stacy

Other comments:
It could be most any type of dyed and stabilized bone if the seller is not legit. I have seen sellers sell cow and other bone as elephant ivory, and similar false claims on fossils.
I would leave the word "Whale" off any shipping paperwork. Merely call it "Fossil"
I agree with the statement that it sometimes depends on who is doing the customs processing. I have had a package delayed because a person did not know that mammoth tusks were legal. The person though all ivory was banned. Generally, use the simplest wording to make it raise the fewest flags.
 
I merely replied to the seizure letter that mammoths were not a protected species under either CITES and had been extinct for the last10,000 years.

My standard response to people who ask where I get mammoth ivory is, "From dead mammoths. I don't hunt them for their tusks anymore."
 
I'll make a few other comments:

If you ask ten people if something like Fossil Whale Bone is legal you will get at least 15 different answers.
Some statutes on marine mammals specifically mention bones and parts but not fossils. Some statutes say, "All bones and parts", but that isn't really clear either. It is up to the seller, the buyer, ... and with international sales ... the customs folks, to decide what the actual status is.

I will add that the amount of processing in these dyed and resin filled scales takes them pretty far away from being just a piece of whale bone.

I can't say that I have ever seen a post with clear info, but shipping by an international courier like UPS or DHL seems the fastest and safest. I am not sure these even go through customs like a mail package does.
Sort of the same as driving into the USA from Mexico and getting the entire car searched and everyone questioned vs flying from Mexico City to Dallas and only having someone bored and tired ask, "Anything to declare?"
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I'll make a few other comments:

If you ask ten people if something like Fossil Whale Bone is legal you will get at least 15 different answers.
Some statutes on marine mammals specifically mention bones and parts but not fossils. Some statutes say, "All bones and parts", but that isn't really clear either. It is up to the seller, the buyer, ... and with international sales ... the customs folks, to decide what the actual status is.

I will add that the amount of processing in these dyed and resin filled scales takes them pretty far away from being just a piece of whale bone.

I can't say that I have ever seen a post with clear info, but shipping by an international courier like UPS or DHL seems the fastest and safest. I am not sure these even go through customs like a mail package does.
Sort of the same as driving into the USA from Mexico and getting the entire car searched and everyone questioned vs flying from Mexico City to Dallas and only having someone bored and tired ask, "Anything to declare?"
Click to expand...
I have shipped a lot of exotic materials like mammoth molar, kingwood (cited on CITES) and such via DHL, so far very few problems. There was just last year about oct/sep that i shipped about 20 orders in short timing containing handles with exotic materials and they were heavily held and delayed in customs, but after that no more, probably they went to check if that was any kind of elephant ivory or anything.

Ill give it a try and hopefully it will be all fine :) Lovely material, i agree with you, they are so processed that actually look like some sort of resin artwork.
 
Fixall said:
Still waiting to hear back, lol. That was over a month ago now.
Click to expand...
You have no real recourse. That's the reality unfortunately. And how can you tell? Take it to a museum and ask what they'd charge to tell you.

Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I'll make a few other comments:

If you ask ten people if something like Fossil Whale Bone is legal you will get at least 15 different answers.
Some statutes on marine mammals specifically mention bones and parts but not fossils. Some statutes say, "All bones and parts", but that isn't really clear either. It is up to the seller, the buyer, ... and with international sales ... the customs folks, to decide what the actual status is.

I will add that the amount of processing in these dyed and resin filled scales takes them pretty far away from being just a piece of whale bone.

I can't say that I have ever seen a post with clear info, but shipping by an international courier like UPS or DHL seems the fastest and safest. I am not sure these even go through customs like a mail package does.
Sort of the same as driving into the USA from Mexico and getting the entire car searched and everyone questioned vs flying from Mexico City to Dallas and only having someone bored and tired ask, "Anything to declare?"
Click to expand...

Correct. The law is the law and exists for a reason, it's up to interpretation. If you were to ask my advice, just don't take the chance.
 
Fixall said:
You just reminded me about my seized shipment, David! I meant to update this thread awhile back, and completely spaced it.

I had a shipment of stabilized redwood burl seized that was heading to Europe under suspicion of being CITES restricted wood back in January. The first letter came from the Fines, Penalties, and Forfeitures Department of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection and sounded scary as all hell. Yikes!

I filed an appeal with the invoice from when I originally purchased the slab, as well as a copy of the invoice when I sold the material (all the proof I had considering redwood is a domestic, non CITES protected species). I finally received a letter regarding the situation about a month ago (from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife of all departments...) saying the shipment had been destroyed. :mad:
Click to expand...

Since not everyone who comes across this thread will necessarily see the other.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I'll make a few other comments:

If you ask ten people if something like Fossil Whale Bone is legal you will get at least 15 different answers.
Some statutes on marine mammals specifically mention bones and parts but not fossils. Some statutes say, "All bones and parts", but that isn't really clear either. It is up to the seller, the buyer, ... and with international sales ... the customs folks, to decide what the actual status is.

I will add that the amount of processing in these dyed and resin filled scales takes them pretty far away from being just a piece of whale bone.

I can't say that I have ever seen a post with clear info, but shipping by an international courier like UPS or DHL seems the fastest and safest. I am not sure these even go through customs like a mail package does.
Sort of the same as driving into the USA from Mexico and getting the entire car searched and everyone questioned vs flying from Mexico City to Dallas and only having someone bored and tired ask, "Anything to declare?"
Click to expand...
yes there is still a customs officer responsible for processing packages through UPS and DHL though both UPS and DHL are on top of things and if there are issues they can be solved quickly in most cases so long as you have the correct paperwork in order on your end.

one thing I'm not to sure about is whether the customs officers proccessing packages for UPS/DHL are privatly employed through UPS and DHL of if these companies are designated workers directly from customs. they might be privately employed by UPS/DHL with certifacations from US customs such as licensing and mandatory reporting.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top