Frame lock issue/question? Not tang lock related

A

Alford78

Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
233
I just got this new knife and have carried it for a week or so. I've been happy with it until last night. I pulled it out of my pocket to open my son's bday gift and he was standing right next to the blade so I tried using the thumb stud rather than the flipper. I thought wow it's stuck, tried flipping it, nope was stuck shut. So I just thought for a minute why/how that could be after I inspected that nothing was lodged in the knife anywhere. I stuck my fingernail between the blade and the frame lock and click, the detent ball released from the hole. It had gotten stuck in the detent hole some how.

I tried replicating it by opening it with the thumb studs and it opened fine. So I grabbed the knife out of my pocket concentrating on grabbing it with my fingers on the lock bar which pushed it right into the detent hole again locking the blade in the shut position.

I'm new to frame locks but have spent quite a bit of money on this one "new from store" and am wondering if this is common (I searched and searched without any similar results- possibly wrong search terms) or if it's simply a flaw in the detent hole being too big which allows all of the exposed ball to fit inside the hole?

I will contact the manufacture after the shows but until then would like some experienced input.

It reminds me of the guy with the shirogorovs that got his detent balls stuck in the detent hole on two different knives. If I had forced the blade open while the frame lock was pressing the ball into the detent I guess that possibly could have happened to me?
 
tokerblue said:
What knife is it? Not all flippers open with the same motion.
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The flipper works just fine as do the thumb studs. It's when I accidently grab the knife by the sides and a finger presses against the actual lock bar which then pushes the entire amount of the exposed detent ball into the tang while it's closed. When this happens the knife will not open unless I were to actually force it open and would hate to do that since have seen detent balls get transferred to the tang under what would appear to be similar circumstances.

I won't comment on the make until can talk to the manufacturer which will be a few more days so was just curious if others have had this happen with frame locks and if it sounds like the detent hole was made too big since its doing this. I don't want any bashing or to start something when the proper thing to do is contact the manufacturer before making claims about their knife publicly. But since I can't really talk to the manufacturer right now I was wanting to see if my reasoning seems correct or if this is something that is a trade off with a frame lock design which I doubt the latter.
 
It's a frame lock. Opening technique may take some getting used to, but you can't put pressure on the lockbar if you're trying to open it. Like you figured out, doing this causes the detent ball to really press into that hole, making it nearly impossible to open.

Be mindful of your finger placement. After some time, it'll be like second nature.

Also, which knife is it?
 
grownstar said:
It's a frame lock. Opening technique may take some getting used to, but you can't put pressure on the lockbar if you're trying to open it. Like you figured out, doing this causes the detent ball to really press into that hole, making it nearly impossible to open.

Be mindful of your finger placement. After some time, it'll be like second nature.

Also, which knife is it?
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Ok. So it's just part of the design. I've just never had that happen with my other frame locks. I had grabbed it in my pocket when pulling it out not when I was trying to open it; although, it is easier to grab it and lock it up when trying to open it than when pulling it out. Was just a coincidence that it happened the harder of the two ways. My fingers naturally push against the lockbar when using the thumb stud method with the 3" knife.
 
I can't see any reason that the ball should get stuck down in the tang detent. Maybe momentarily trapped when you're putting pressure on it, but not stuck as you describe. The ball sticks out too much and/or the hole is too deep for that to happen.

I have an $8 frame lock that I absolutely couldn't get to "stick" with any amount of pressure on the lock bar. It becomes progressively harder to open, but doesn't catch. So I really don't think it makes sense to go with "user error" on this problem.

Let us know how they take care of it for you. :thumbup:
 
Depending on the brand, some flippers have a strong detent and when you apply pressure on the flipper, the blade will fly out like it is an assisted open knife. Some have a weak detent and you can easily open it with little effort. I'd bet you have a strong detent with your knife and putting any pressure on the lock bar will render it almost impossible to open. I have a couple of ZT's like that. I can only open the knife by using the flipper. As long as it opens like it's supposed to, the knife is without issues.
 
This is interesting, and something I've never experienced before. I just took the ZT 0566 out of my pocket and I can replicate what you're experiencing, but I have to really try. I have to put pressure very close to the detent, and it's a very unnatural position for my hand which is probably why I've never had this problem before.

My two other frame locks are both Spydercos, one also a flipper (Southard), and I can't get the same effect at all with them. They will open in spite of me, so it might be related to the design of the detent interface. Or it could just be luck of the draw, but either way the biggest factor is how I hold the knife. If I'm not trying to press on the lock bar purposely, it just doesn't happen.
 
Alford78 said:
I just got this new knife and have carried it for a week or so. I've been happy with it until last night. I pulled it out of my pocket to open my son's bday gift and he was standing right next to the blade so I tried using the thumb stud rather than the flipper. I thought wow it's stuck, tried flipping it, nope was stuck shut. So I just thought for a minute why/how that could be after I inspected that nothing was lodged in the knife anywhere. I stuck my fingernail between the blade and the frame lock and click, the detent ball released from the hole. It had gotten stuck in the detent hole some how.

I tried replicating it by opening it with the thumb studs and it opened fine. So I grabbed the knife out of my pocket concentrating on grabbing it with my fingers on the lock bar which pushed it right into the detent hole again locking the blade in the shut position.

I'm new to frame locks but have spent quite a bit of money on this one "new from store" and am wondering if this is common (I searched and searched without any similar results- possibly wrong search terms) or if it's simply a flaw in the detent hole being too big which allows all of the exposed ball to fit inside the hole?

I will contact the manufacture after the shows but until then would like some experienced input.

It reminds me of the guy with the shirogorovs that got his detent balls stuck in the detent hole on two different knives. If I had forced the blade open while the frame lock was pressing the ball into the detent I guess that possibly could have happened to me?
Click to expand...

I would give it a couple of squirts of Breakfree CLP to lube and clean the action. You can get it at most gun shops and sporting goods departments. Inexpensive, synthetic, won't gum up.
 
If you have a detent ball becoming 'stuck' in the hole and having to be pried loose, making an audible 'click' when you pry it out, you have a defective knife. Every time it snaps in or out like that it's probably doing some damage too.

I'd send it back right away.
 
EChoil said:
If you have a detent ball becoming 'stuck' in the hole and having to be pried loose, making an audible 'click' when you pry it out, you have a defective knife. Every time it snaps in or out like that it's probably doing some damage too.

I'd send it back right away.
Click to expand...

That's what I think since it does it so forcefully. It's not like a strong detent. It's a lockup. My ZT 0562cf has a strong detent and feels great flipping. This has a medium detent and if just barely touch the lock bar it slides right into the hole and locks up.

I just didn't know how common of a problem this was. Doesn't seem too common since I couldn't find a search and only one person kinda replicated it with a ZT although my ZT won't lockup.

My first thought was detent hole was drilled just barely too big or too deep or the detent ball is sticking out too far.
 
Alford78 said:
I just didn't know how common of a problem this was.
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Say what knife this is. It would help us assist you. Having an issue with a detent ball is in no way saying something negative about them. If anything it should be addressed and sent to them.
Instead of trying so solve this on a mystery knife.

It does however sound like a defect and unless you can manipulate the detent hole to work in your favor, just send it back for a new one.
 
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when you use the thumb studds you are also putting pressure on the lockbar on the other side of the knife with youre fingertips this pussing the detent ball in further.change you finger location.
 
endgamer said:
when you use the thumb studds you are also putting pressure on the lockbar on the other side of the knife with youre fingertips this pussing the detent ball in further.change you finger location.
Click to expand...

Yea. I that's not the problem though. The first time and in the repeated times I've tried replicating it when any pressure what's so ever is applied to the lock bar near the tang (not down lower by the heel) it slides right into the tang hole and is secured very tightly. It only takes a tiny bit of pressure. When opening it once out of pocket and is free, opening it without touching the bar is easy to do but if do touch it then chances are it slides right up against the blade and, locks up.

I understand not putting pressure on the detent while opening any knife similar in design to Sebenza, Hinderer, ZT, BM, etc.. I just wanted to confirm this is rare and not a common design flaw. I only have 10 or so similar knives that I've purchased over the past 3 weeks or so of collecting and this one is the only one that does it. So in my limited experience it's not rare at all but my small sample skews the data most likely and just wanted to confirm that.

Like I said I searched everywhere -Google, YouTube, here, other knife forums and didn't see anything like this other than the guy that had two shirogorov which ended up having the detent ball transfer from the lock bar to the detent hole. And I was/am afraid to force mine open when it's locked up for that reason.

I have a video and will post it after deal with the manufacturer regardless of what they do or don't do. My thinking is either the detent ball isn't pressed in far enough or the tang hole is too big or too deep.
 
People are trying to help you and you wont give the name of the manufacturer, uhhh why, seems redundant to me lol
 
I'm not naming the manufacturer for a few reasons.

1. The topic is about a design which is shared by many knives and most are extremely close to being identical.

2. If I was the manufacturer I would want my customer to come to me with the problem and let me either take care of it, not take care of it, or explain that there is nothing wrong with it after examining the knife.

3. If I change the topic of a frame lock topic to the manufacturer then the thread could get moved to a specific maker when I'm wanting feedback from a wide range of manufacturers. Seems like it's a very tiny amount of knives with this issue so that's what I was hoping to hear.


The purpose of the thread was to determine if it's a defect which I was pretty certain it was and to see how many others have ran into this problem with frame locking knives in general. I'm not a mechanical engineer rather a civil and archetectural engineer so can't speak to all the trade offs between liner lock vs frame lock etc... But I do like both and can see advantages to both designs. Having the issue that my knife has could be bad if actually needed to pull it out and deploy it in a hurry but I'm not doing much construction or working with tie lines that could need cutting in an emergency. If I was and this happened I have faith that I could force the blade open though ;-) it just might not operate properly afterwards.
 
There are some framelocks that if you put too much pressure on the lockbar, it becomes impossible to flip open. There are some designed to accommodate the finger pressure on the lockbar.

The detent ball & the detent hole geometry plays a huge part of it. How far the detent ball is pressed in, is it flat. The detent hole design, meaning how much of the detent ball sits in the detent hole and is it centered. All this goes into the play of the action. For example, having a flat detent ball that sits further in the detent hole makes for a very fast, snappy action.

Without seeing the knife, what you are describing sounds like the detent hole might be too big and you are pressing the lockbar pushing the detent ball down into the hole. Maybe the ball is catching the edge of the whole and not letting the lockbar come back to original position, requiring you to manually take it out.
 
Not a hole issue, rather a detent ball issue, if you ask me. Sounds like it isn't seated low enough, and being the size of the hole, seizes up when it 'drops in.'

I've never heard of this defect, so it can't be common. But it definitely IS a defect. I've no doubt that whomever the manufacturer is, they will be happy to fix it.

But, if they give you crap, you should be able to alleviate the problem by widening the top of the hole in the blade where the detent balls drops in. May just take a counter-sink type drill bit, and bevel the top of the hole, or maybe a small round file to widen it, giving the ball a sort of ramp to slide out over.

Either way, I'm curious to see what the actual issue turns out to be.
 
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