frame lock stabilizer

A

APerna

Joined
Aug 24, 2003
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351
Question? Has anyone ever had any problems with their frame lock on their sebbies where it over traveled to the left (on right hand models) and would not engage the blade properly? Personally I never have nor entertained the problem before. The reason why I ask is that the new Strider gen 6 SnG/SMF are now equipped with this feature. :confused:
 
and while they make perfect sense to me, I just don't see them as that necessary on the Sebenza as long as you don't make a habit of pushing the lock bar too far the other way while disengaging. Besides, it would be adding another part or two to a folder grounded in simplicity and minimalism!

Professor.
 
Seems like it's not really needed. I know the Spyderco ATR has a button to prevent over travel, but I've never had a problem with damaging the lock bar by just releasing the framelock, :confused:

Edit it to add that the CAD drawing makes it clear what it's supposed to help with. It's supposed to limit the lockbar travel across it's width towards the spine, I'm guessing when pressure is applied to the lock.

I'm not a knife maker but that seems totally unnecessary as long as your design and materials is of sufficient stiffness and strength.
 
I can't see where a Sebbie would need that, plus it looks stupid on the knife in the picture, Looks like something I would do and screw a knife up.
 
Short answer: No, I have not had either of those problems with my large or small 'Benz. Nor have I heard of such a case on- or offline.

One of the main reasons for using titanium is its "memory," i.e., it unfailingly returns to its set form. One would have to peel the lock bar out VERY far, and deliberately, to alter this; not just a matter of accidentally pressing out a few millimeters repeatedly over time. I suppose the Ti could be flawed or compromised in its composition, but that would be a QC issue and not a design issue.

More generally: There have been a lot of dramatic changes in lock designs lately, so it is only natural for makers to tweak older ones in an effort to improve them. But I imagine this stabilizer would appeal only to those of the mind that "too much is not enough" (along with the 1/4" blade spine and thick edge, to "ensure" it doesn't "break during hard use," etc.).

After all, the only (now well-established) issues with frame locks are: 1) that your thumb is initially in the blade's path while disengaging the lock; and 2) that, under certain circumstances with the "right sized" hand or grip, "white knuckling" might inadvertently disengage the lock. How significant these issues may be is a matter of individual habit and preference. But neither is addressed by the stabilizer anyway.
 
It seems to me that such a device is totally unnecessary in a well designed and executed frame lock. I have a Sebbie and a Sng and I can't see where this device would be needed. Maybe I'm wrong but that's my opinion.
 
Have any of you guys ever handled a Rick Hinderer knife? The Firetac is a nice design. It has the lock stabilizer. It doesn’t cause any problems and seems to do what Rick says. Rick Hinderer’s knives are very well made. They are almost perfect, just like a Sebenza. I think they are underpriced. True North Knives has some pictures, but all of the Firetacs are sold. I also think Sebenzas are underpriced.
 
I have a Rick Hinderer Firetac Extreme and it is the answer to my dream knife........an XL Sebbie. The frame lock stabilizer is a good idea but like ya'll I don't ever see the need for it on the Sebbie. I have NEVER had a single problem with a Sebenza as far as the lock bar goes. I have seen some other framelocks where the tension from the spring is so light that I think it would be possible to push it a bit far to the left. The lock bar on the Firetac is as tight as the ones on my sebbies were and I doubt that the lock stabilizer will ever have to function as it is designed.............but it is nice to have it there as it really does prevent any over travel on the lock.
 
Well after a long talk with Rick at Blade I can say that the lock stabilizer works. Is it needed on every knife. each person can judge that for himself.
But it does what it was designed to do and does not detract from the knife in any way , anything that makes the knife better is a welcome addition.

I am sure Striders are used harder than Sebenzas , and for Mick to endorse it and use it on his knives , tells me it sure as heck must be worth it.

I for one would like to see it on a Sebenza but for the price or close to it you can get a Firetac which too me is the best value out there for a custom folder.
 
Hello all!
I just wanted to but in alittle here and give a explaination of my lockbar stabilizer....first I want to say that i believe Chris's sebensa is a great knife and always have felt this way...
The Lockbar stabilizer is a improvement that I came up with to address a couple problems,both of which some of you dont think is a problem....A little history...I am a Firefighter, and while working on a good accident one evening I needed to use my Firetac to cut the seat cushion material from around the seat post before using the jaws to cut the post, because of adrenaline and the fact that we use heavy turnout gloves,the lock was overextended,now in a situation like that you are NOT focusing on carefully closeing the blade..with the adrenaline pumping a firefighter could bend a friggin 1/4 bar of steel! so the statement of a "properly designed and executed" framelock is well,thinking backwards.Also this "memory" in titanium all knifemakers who make linerlock and framelock knives know about. This overextension does and will happen to framelocks that are actually used....
With the problem of the lockbar springing towards the back of a knife...think about it...when you make a lockbar in a framelock knife you need to cut a slot in the handle side...this slot varies in thickness,but it still is a slot..you have space for the lockbar to move towards the back of the knife when you squeeze the handle,simple physics..and of course whenever you have movement within a system...well, you know..and also as this lockbar moves ever so slightly against the back of the blade tang you have more wear..
I conclusion, when do we as knife designers and makers say stop to designing hard use tools, when is it good enough, or not nessesary,those of us in the emergency services field,realize when the chips are down you need all the extra help!..Chris saw this when he designed the first framelock folder,and I'm sure that there were naysayers then about his new folding knife idea,but we are all glad that he came up with such a great knife...So is the Lockbar Stabilizer a improvement?...thats for you all to decide in the long run..Thanks for listening

Regards
Rick Hinderer

PS..NGK, I am really surprised a comment like that would come from a professional knife dealer. Are you also a knifemaker? Seems I never seen your knives before?
 
Rick, maybe you can clarify this for me because I'm still not 100% what this thing is supposed to do.

Is it supposed to limit overtravel the the same direction the lock bar normally locks in?

Or is it to limit travel across the width of the lock bar towards the spine, 90 degrees from the normal locking, unlocking direction?
 
Can't you achieve the same thing by adding an over-lay to the locking Ti side? Something like G10 overlayed like on Tighe's "My Tighe."

Jon
 
I think this thread is moving in a direction more suited to the general Blade Discussion Forum, so I'm moving it there. Carry on.... :cool:
 
I find it funny that people who have never had something happen to them like to criticise a feature that prevents catastrophic failure for someone else.

Call it a pet peeve... but people who have never had a linerlock fail, have never slipped forward onto a blade, or caused overtravel in a framelock are really kind of narrowminded to think it doesn't ever happen and that knives don't "need" features like the LAWKS, the lockstop, or deep front guards.

Yeah, they've all happened to me. Maybe I'm a jinx, but it happens.

I've oversprung a lockbar on a framelock. Not fun. Not easy to do, but when you're not paying attention, it happens.

As for overlays... yes, it works, but 1) it causes the handle to be really bulky (usually a framelock's slab is the same thickness as a liner plus scale), 2) if done improperly, it can cause difficulty in the clip positioning and operation, and 3) if done improperly, it can prevent the framelock's advantage of keeping palm pressure on the lockbar.

You don't need to push the lockbar that far out to make the blade UTTERLY fail to lock up. Titanium has some memory, but the memory is set to the OPPOSITE slab. You just need to move it maybe 3-4mm beyond full unlock (depending on the relief) for it to take a set. Yes, 3-4mm. I've done a lot of testing on different framelocks as I tried to set the tension correctly.

Unlike a thin linerlock where the whole lockbar is under spring tension (and thus will bend), the framelock only arcs around its relief. Which means that the relief point is subject to more arc and torque.

You can wrench a linerlock really far out (1-1.5inches) before it really takes much of a set, but for some reason the framelocks will do so pretty easily.

Once you've given the lock a set, you're totally hosed as to a blade. It doesn't even have a slipjoint's retention.

All you need is for it to happen once and the knife is USELESS until you strip the whole thing and reset the lock, provided you have the tools on you and are skilled enough to do so.

DDR's lockstop plate, Hinderer's lock stabilizer, Marfione's lockstop tab, and my own lockstop overlay all prevent overtravel of the lockbar.

For the record, I believe the clip on the Seb actually functions a little like a lockstop -- you have to overcome the lock tension, which hits the clip, and then you have to overcome the clip tension too. That helps things.

It might be useless for you.

It isn't useless for everyone else. Don't knock what you don't know.

Rant off.

-j
 
DaveH said:
Is it supposed to limit overtravel the the same direction the lock bar normally locks in?

Or is it to limit travel across the width of the lock bar towards the spine, 90 degrees from the normal locking, unlocking direction?
Click to expand...

As I understand it, it does both. Spine-directed slippage will cause wear on the lock mate face as well as possible cause lock failure.

Kind of nifty. None of the other lockstop solutions are that cool.

A brilliant solution to a problem that 99% of people won't run into, but saves 100% of the a$$ for the 1% it does happen to.

I'll take it on any framelock it comes on.

-j
 
Another thing to consider here is the fact that many people don't like a heavy lock. So, at customers requests, you get lighter locks. Which are easy to over extend.

The round hole clip DDR uses also acts as a lock stop on his knives and a few other frame locks.

As Rick said, it's up to you to decide if you need it.
 
Biogon,
You said it exactly!....I made framelocks for a good 4 years before I realized on a MVA call the big inherent problem with overextending the lockbar..again,it was extreme circamstance's BUT it happened and I wasnt happy,bad time for **** like that to happen, so I went about correcting the problem..you answered the question about the second feature of the stabilizer,(which is why I call it a Lockbar Stabilizer") is that it keeps the lockbar completly stable when the knife is open.Again whenever you have movement ina system it is a chance for that system to fail...also yes, the movement of the lockbar towards the spine across the lockup area of the blade will cause more wear...Thank you for answering these questions!
Kimberholic...yes, a slab will prevent the overtravel,but then you have handle sides,just like a regular linerlock..but,the slabs will not prevent the springing of the lockbar towards the spine....
Thanks again everyone,for giving me a chance to explain this feature.

Rick Hinderer
 
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