Frame lock vs other locks

[golok]

I just acquired a frame-lock folder that's so tough that I need two hands for its closing. This brings me to the question of whether frame locks are more superior to other locks, for example, the axis.

I suppose this is subjective but can locks be adjudged better via engineering reasons.

Thinking that it is better is not good enough. Has there been any tests carried out on the various kinds of locks under controlled conditions?

There's probably one man I know out there who will or has probably carried out such a test. And they call him the "knife buster!"
It would be interesting to know the results.

 

[thombrogan]

The only real "strength" any type of lock would have over another is in its ability to avoid accidental disengagement. At the same time, while an axis lock has that advantage over a framelock, it can still be weaker. It depends on the type and amount of materials used and how well they were assembled.

Compare a Benchmade 771 Osborne with partial liners and aluminum scales to a Strider SnG or SMF framelock. The Strider's lock will be able to resist more inch pounds of pressure before failure, but has a chance of being disengaged if twisted in a cutting material. One could easily imagine that same twisting force would snap the blade and bend the handle of the Benchmade 771, but its lock would be in place.

And with the accidental disengagement, there are types of that, too. Lockbacks, for instance, seem to be immune to anything except for lint. Liner locks, which are the scratch-tickets of the folder world, shrug off lint, but can be squeezed to failure. Actually, that's true of some lockbacks, too. Then, there are some bullet-proof feeling liner locks out there, too. Benchmade's 350 and 800 feel very secure and I've heard a lot of great things about Strider's AR and GB.

Unfortunately, any blanket statements that can be made need lots of qualifiers.

 

[The Deacon]

I know Sal Glesser of Spyderco tests all their models for strength, and would infer from this that any style of lock used in an MBC rated Spyderco has the potential to be a very sturdy lock. Of course this does not mean that every Spyderco lock of those types is equally sturdy, or that similar locks by any other manufacturer are as sturdy or even minimally safe to use.

Independent testing, an "Consumer Reports" for knives if you will, would be very expensive as multiple specimens of each knife would have to be tested. The fact that one given sample passed or failed would mean very little if the manufacturers quality control was not consistent. And, to avoid the possibility of the results being skewed by manufacturers submitting hand picked (or even specially built) samples for testing, the knives would have to be purchased on the open market.

Then there is the issue of failure modes. There are many different scenarios to induce lock failure, although some are more imminently dangerous than others. A lock that passes the "spine whack" test may fail under lower, but steady pressure applied to the top of the blade (for example using the blade to lift and carry something), or fail under side load, twisting load, chopping, or steady upward pressure on the blade. I am sure there are additional failure modes that I have missed too. Which ones to test for, how to test, and how to grade the results in a manner that would be meaningful to a variety of user needs would all have to be very difficult, if not impossible, to determine.

 

[USAFSP]

For a folder, I think the best was the lock was on the REKAT line of knives, but they are not made any longer. I know that REKAT tested those to absolute destruction. They took 1000lbs of pressure before failure. Of course, I think that balisongs have the best locks, but for the sake of this thread I think the best out there now are the new Spyderco locks. I forget the name of it, but it has the little ball bearing in handle.

 

[Steven Roos]

Originally posted by USAFSP
For a folder, I think the best was the lock was on the REKAT line of knives, but they are not made any longer. I know that REKAT tested those to absolute destruction. They took 1000lbs of pressure before failure. Of course, I think that balisongs have the best locks, but for the sake of this thread I think the best out there now are the new Spyderco locks. I forget the name of it, but it has the little ball bearing in handle.

The Rolling lock LIVES!!!
http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.asp?model=10200

 

[alan aragon]

Originally posted by golok
I just acquired a frame-lock folder that's so tough that I need two hands for its closing. This brings me to the question of whether frame locks are more superior to other locks, for example, the axis.

I suppose this is subjective but can locks be adjudged better via engineering reasons.

Thinking that it is better is not good enough. Has there been any tests carried out on the various kinds of locks under controlled conditions?

There's probably one man I know out there who will or has probably carried out such a test. And they call him the "knife buster!"
It would be interesting to know the results.

what framelock did you get? any pics? i love framelocks, the concept & design is so simple & elegant. i doubt it would be easy to twist one into disengagement unless you used the blade to tighten mack truck wheel screws, or something similarly far-fetched.

 

[Tightwad]

A knife lock of any kind is only as strong as the
pivot point. That said NO folding lock can
accomplish much more than additional saftey for the
user. Many approach a fixed blade for strength but
all fail.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Originally posted by Tightwad
Many approach a fixed blade for strength but
all fail.

Compare a folder with a strong lock to a fixed blade with a weak tang and the folder wins.

There are no final answers. Some locks tend to be more reliable than others. Within each type there are better and worse variants. But the same thing goes for fixed blades, although not to as obvious an extent.

Anyway, the point is moot in a jurisdiction where fixed blades are discouraged for ordinary carry.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

The new Spyderco Ball Lock is basically an Axis Lock where the locking roller doesn't stick out past the handle slabs, making it effectively immune to accidental release. It can also take a stronger spring, and one in line with the ball instead of two alongside the roller.

The only disadvantage is the relative difficulty in accessing the ball for intentional release. I can release it easily bare-handed, but with gloves it might be a problem.

I haven't handled the Compression Lock that Spyderco uses on the Gunting and ATR, but that looks lik a real winner, too, in the strength and reliability category.

As a real world answer, I have framelocks and linerlocks and lockbacks and a few others, too, and if one ever failed, I'd have gotten rid of it, so they can all be done effectively for light daily use But the lockbacks and the framelocks are the ones I use without flinching.

 

[Louky]

I totally trust my Sebenza frame-lock. It is for me the most reliable system simply because my own fingers push the liner in the locking position when I handle the knife. I can also feel any liner movement and prevent locking failures.

I know a knife doesn't be used as a pry-bar , but I always asked myself how much weight can be applied on the Sebenza handle (in the two dimensions : over and on the side) before something breaks. I think the knife is able to support the maximum force it is humanly possible to develop (with a normal body !!!)... I hope...

What is your opinion ?

 

[allenC]

I once thought frame-locks were the best...but they still have some of the same problems that liner-locks have:

1) As they wear across the tang, the lock-up becomes less and less secure.
2) They still relie upon a ball detent to keep them closed.
3) They're still more likely to fail a spine-whack than even a (relatively) cheap lock-back.
4) Very few are lefty friendly.

I don't find liner-locks or frame-locks to be any better than a well built lock-back.

There are even better locks available if the lock is your primary concern:

Bali-song latch-lock (butterfly knives).
Benchmade's Axis-lock (and SOG's Arc-lock and Cold Steel's Ultra-lock).
Walker's BladeLOCK, found in CRKT's BladeLock.
And the Rolling-lock, now found in CRKT's Rollock.

The Rollock is especially safe because it cannot fold on your fingers even if the lock somehow failed.

Good luck,
Allen.

 

[WadeF]

I like frame locks in general. However I find the frame lock on the Sebenza to be easy to accidentally disengaged if you twist counter clock wise. Anyone who's got one, just look at your Sebenza. Notice how the lock is exposed by the opposite handle? Meaning when you twist your pulling on the lock in the direction that would disengage it. If you look at a Camillus Dominator the opposite non locking side of the handle doens't expose the lock like this. So when you twist you're more likely to be putting pressure against the non-locking handle and not putting a lot of force against the lock. This might be something Chris Reeves should look into changing on his Sebenza's. It's not even hard to disengage. Just hold the Sebenza's blade in your left hand and twist the handle so you're finger is pulling on the lock. See how that could be easy to do? Now, I don't go sticking my knives into things and twisting very often, so for most situations this problem isn't of much concern.

I feel most comfortable with my Axis locks. I know there isn't anyway that lock will fail on me. I don't have enough strength or weight to make it fail.