Frame Lock ???

A

audiopile

Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
653
I have a basic frame lock question. I have only owned 3 frame locks in the last 50 years as a knife user. Had picked up a folding CRKT very small kiss model some years ago - it folded on me the first day I started to use it while cutting a carboard box -shortest time I have in on a EDU in my life. Gave it to a friend who understands it's limitations and continues to use it to this day. Generalizing from almost no data - I didn't look at framelocks for the next ? years. Recently acquired two used ( but neither appears to be even slightly abused or FW'd) frame locks made by a co. I respect. Been useing one of these for a few weeks - recently noticed that when I actually cut something with it ( most noticably when slicing up cardboard boxes for recycling) - the frame lock moves into the frame or over the back of the blade (depends on how you want to look at it) - at this point it is noticably difficult to un-lock/fold the knife.
My question is this - while understanding that this is no where near to the thing breaking or cutting me - it sorta negates having a easily deployed blade if you've got to fight it back into folding back up. I tend to fool around with different designs for a month or so -and then stick to one design for years. Is this kind of wear in a common thing with frame locks? If not - given daily tool use ( not trying to pound the thing thru 2X4's or multiple water soaked copies of the Manhatan phone directory) - how long before a frame lock starts to do this?Inheirent strength issues are of only academic interst to me -the only liner lock I've ever had fail on me was the only hand made custom knife I've ever bought - it lasted less than 2 years of EDU. Liner locks from quality makers have served me quite well.Basically - I'm wondering if frame locks are worth the trouble? Not much intersted in theoretical discussion - more wanting to hear from folks who have used a single knife for years?
 
I think when you mention during cutting the lock moving further over so it's harder to unlock, may have to do with very slight give at the stop pin?? That might allow the lock to move further during pressure on the edge, on a less-properly fitted frame lock.

I know everyone mentions it, but my Sebenza's frame lock has zero play, or change in lockup position, even after 5 years. And it's one of my main EDC's to this day.

But...I've had other, inexpensive frame locks that work surprisingly well. So I will emphasize this here. My Benchmade Monochrome has excellent lockup, and there is no moving over during heavy cutting. That model costs from about $40-$50 retail. I would not so trust a CRKT KISS; those are not bad knives, but no way is the lockup design to the same stability as the Monochrome.

Also, I have a Camillus EDC with 154 CM blade that I've had a few years. Don't use it much at all, but when cutting, it also has no lock movement.

I once tried to buy a Kershaw frame lock (made in China; forget the name; was it called the Vapor??) at a Wal-Mart. I opened it and it locked open; I lightly pressed the back of the blade, and it popped off the lock and closed. I tried it with one or two more of the same knives, and they all closed with light to moderate pressure from the locked-open position, so I passed it up. I love Kershaw knives, but that particular model I will not touch.

So it's not that frame locks are not reliable, it depends on the knife.
Jim
 
audiopile- if you don't get the answer you want here try STR's forum here, he is very knowledgable, and can probably tell you whatever you want to know.

BTW- what are these framelocks you are talking about?
 
BTW:
My Sebenza is used for all types of cutting, esp. cardboard, plastic strapping, clamshell packing, some whittling, etc. No lock movement. And it does take a purposeful unlocking to get it to close. In other words, it takes an effort, more so than it takes to unlock my Kershaw Leek's frame lock. But unlocking the Sebbie is not a thumb killer unless end up having to do it on and off all day long.

I've had the Monochrome about 2 years. Don't use it as often as the Seb, but it's had its share of use.

I have other good frame locks, but these 2 have seen the most use.
Jim
 
I've never had a Sebenza (frame) lock fail on me. If you really squeeze the handle, along with the lock bar, unlocking may require a little more effort but nothing unusual.
 
Like any lock, if it isn't made right, if the tolerances aren't tight enough, if the materials aren't chosen properly, the lock-up will not be satisfactory. The framelock is arguably among the few most reliable designs for a knife lock. This also makes it the lock of choice for companies that aren't willing to put the effort needed into the manufacturing process.

It's not the lock, not the framelock, liner, bolt action, plunge, axis/arc/ultra, or lockback. It's the specific knife model from a specific company that's important.
 
While this is not to imply any distrust of the gentleman I purchased the knife from - it's a used knife - I have no idea what it may have been used for or what may have been done to it prior to my ownership.Therefore - who made it is not the issue.
I trully appreciate the prompt responces - this seems to answer the question and keep me from making a general assumption about long term use of frame locks in general.
 
James Y said:
I think when you mention during cutting the lock moving further over so it's harder to unlock, may have to do with very slight give at the stop pin?? That might allow the lock to move further during pressure on the edge, on a less-properly fitted frame lock.

I know everyone mentions it, but my Sebenza's frame lock has zero play, or change in lockup position, even after 5 years. And it's one of my main EDC's to this day.

But...I've had other, inexpensive frame locks that work surprisingly well. So I will emphasize this here. My Benchmade Monochrome has excellent lockup, and there is no moving over during heavy cutting. That model costs from about $40-$50 retail. I would not so trust a CRKT KISS; those are not bad knives, but no way is the lockup design to the same stability as the Monochrome.

Also, I have a Camillus EDC with 154 CM blade that I've had a few years. Don't use it much at all, but when cutting, it also has no lock movement.

I once tried to buy a Kershaw frame lock (made in China; forget the name; was it called the Vapor??) at a Wal-Mart. I opened it and it locked open; I lightly pressed the back of the blade, and it popped off the lock and closed. I tried it with one or two more of the same knives, and they all closed with light to moderate pressure from the locked-open position, so I passed it up. I love Kershaw knives, but that particular model I will not touch.

So it's not that frame locks are not reliable, it depends on the knife.
Jim
Click to expand...

My Camillus EDC's lockbar certainly moves further when the knife is gripped hard enough (or when it's flicked open).
Audiopile, I think what you described is (sort of :)) normal for framelocks and linerlocks.
 
Typically liner locks are less reliable than a frame lock. When this is not true it is usually associated with a good ole boy taking the pocket clip off his frame lock not realizing that the clip is acting as more than a convenient carry tool but also doubles as a lock stabalizer preventing the accidental hyper extension of the lock out the wrong way during use.

This is the most frequent cause of frame lock defeats that I see. In 9 out of 10 cases where someone has contacted me about a frame lock gone bad it has always turned out to be either this or if I cannot find any reason to believe the owner or user of the knife took the clip off at any time it is related to the lock never having been sprung correctly or enough at the factory so it never self corrected with wear by moving in farther and farther as it should.

As for the sticking lock. Many locks, even liner locks wills stick at times making them quite difficult to negotiate. I have had some Emerson liner locks and BenchMade liner locks of thinner titanium that would really give my very stout thumb a work out trying to close. I had one Cuda Maxx here that was a royal bear to make close. It can happen. It can be adjusted though and most often if the knife has a warranty I recommend returning it to the maker or manufacturer for that. They will have to agree if its that bad trust me.

STR
 
I have put the lock creep down to slack at the pivot. I just got a Greco Falcon folder, and straight out of the shipping box I checked the lock. It did as many I have tried before-press against the lockbar and it will travel all the way across to the opposite side.

But, if you press laterally against the blade from the locking side just before the lock engages, the lock travels only partially. This is because, as you look at the lockface on the blade, you can see that pushing from that side makes the angle of the lock steeper. If you push against the blade from the non-locking side, any slack at the pivot allows the blade to shift to where the lockface becomes less angled to the lockbar. I went ahead and disassembled the knife and confirmed the slop at the pivot hole.

Maybe you can try it, I'll try to describe as best I can what I do.

Hold the knife to where you would be looking down on the edge and lock, the bottom side of the handle facing up with the pivot facing away from you.

Open the knife almost fully, I usually take it to where the detent slips off the blade

If you are holding the handle in your right hand, put your left under the spine of the blade and push against it with your thumb from the left side

while maintaining this pressure, move the blade the remaining distance to fully open.

if there is play in the pivot, the lock will not engage as far as normal, you can push against the lockbar while still pressing against the blade to see if it moves.

The problem with too much slack at the hole is that the very way the lock engages applies force against the tang in a way that it shifts the blade in the wrong direction, trying to force the lockface of the blade parallel to the lockface of the bar. If they were parallel, the lock wouldn't... lock.
 
My SnG, Buck Mayo Tnt, and Vapor II all lock up solid. I've had the SnG for a year, and it hasn't changed in the least. I don't trust any of my CRKT KISSes. They have all slid over too far, and the worst will flip to the backside and jam half open.

I see alot of what Hardheart says, plus add in thin blades and teflon washers, or a lot of gap between the blade and handle. It gives a thin lock lots of room to wander over and fall off.

As it goes for liner locks, so it's the same for frame locks, you get what you pay for, and it's a crap shoot with the cheaper knives. I doubt very seriously a hand-made Halligan KISS ever had the problem.
 
I have many custom frame locks, and well as Sebenza's, and they ARE all ROCK solid!

I agree with you get what you pay for.
 
I have a Benchmade 710 with an AXIS lock that is hard release to close, when I've snapped the blade open a bit too hard. Most AXIS locks don't stick like this one, but it goes to show that any lock type can have a problem now and then.

Also, some people are ham handed and not good with mechanical devices. They can break almost anything.
 
The knife in question never gave me a bit of worry as far as it having any chance of un-locking - simply put it was wearing a patch out of my right thumb forcing it out of lock!
 
T.K.C. hit it right on the head. You get what you pay for. If you take knives as a serious tool and a lifelong investment, buying something that may be out of your price point (ex..Sebenza or custom) will save you money in the long run! It will prevent you from buying multiple $150 knives that always add up to be really expensive at the end of the year. I learned this one about 10 years ago.
 
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