Franken-sebs...What Blade on What Body?

[aznpos531]

I'm getting a few more Sebenza's in the near future and I got to thinking; can I mix and match blades/handles among them?
Obviously a blade from a 21 will probably fit in another 21 just fine, but will a blade from a 21 fit on a classic or a regular Seb? Which combinations work and which don't?

Thanks!

 

[atony]

I put a Micarta/ Insingo together, I can't wait for this combo to come from CRK.

 

[nyefmaker]

By rule, they will not work as each crk blade is fitted to the frame lock by machining the slightest amount off the blade tang. Even though crk has the tightest specs in the industry ( I havent seen anyone come close ), there is still variances. You will see many blade combos on here in pics:

regular handle/21 blade
21 blade/regular handle
insingo blades on regular/classic handles
etc.

What most of these pics do not show however is the lockup. Some are early at like 10%, some will be 100%. At one time, I had about 10 large regular sebenzas ( all uniques/cgg except my large regular BG42 sebenza & NCIS engraved large regular ) . I carefully marked every blade and did an experiement to see if others matched. None did. Some were close, but no cigar. I cant speak for the classic/21's, but even in the regulars I have had, there is subtle blade tang changes which would make an older regular not fit a newer regular, regardless of proper machining/mating slabs.

Seeing these kinda drives me nuts and is a pet peave of mine because I have seen several sebenzas get sold to newbies and veterans alike with swapped blades. I ALWAYS ask for a lock-up pic when buying a used sebenza. If it did not come from crk themselves or a crk dealer, do yourself a favor and ask for a pic of the lock-up. Sebenzas range from 50-75% which I believe is spec. from crk. I have had sellers refuse to give me a lock-up pics ( on ebay, not so much the forums ) which begs the question ?????

SO......As a rule, None of the combos work. CRK will also tell you the same thing.

There was a recent thread talking about this and a knife selling on ebay where a regular blade was on a classic frame. The seller stated it was new this way, only to find out from a fellow members research that it was indeed changed and mentioned on this forum when they did.

Like anything in life, " if your not sure...ASK !!! "

 

[TyFrameLock]

Every blade-pivot-washer is custom fitted.

I was curious about this myself, and I did an experiment between two EXACT Small Regular Models one born April 2007 one born May 2007 and I tried to swap bushings, the blades would no move once the pivot was tightened down, so I swapped them back and tried swapping washers, once again, the blades would not open.

 

[DallasSTB]

Well said, nyef. :thumbup:

Sebenza parts are manufactured to tenths of a thousandths of an inch tolerances, then they each receive a final hand check for lockup (among other things) before they leave the shop. Because of the high tolerances, random parts may fit OK to the naked eye, but they won't be fitted the way CR intended, and CRK won't warranty a Franken-seb.

 

[aznpos531]

Thanks for all the replies. Great info here!

 

[grybsh7]

I did a little trading to get this Franken Seb from a long standing, well respected member here. He fully disclosed all the details about the blade swap he did and stated the knife had correct lock up and a smooth action. When I got the knife I was surprised at how smooth it was and how solidly it locked up. I understand why guys don't like seeing it be done but it can be done and the knife work perfectly. Because the price was right I didn't mind polishing the edge on my EP and carrying the knife.

 

[nyefmaker]

Nice pics and thanks for sharing. I have seen instances where pieces do "seem" to fit, much like DallasSTB. But it is rare and the knife is not covered under warranty.

This combo is what the "P" sebenza looked like. God I wish they would offer that combo again. I personally find the regular blade far superior to the 21 in design and function. I had family members jump back when I opened a large 21 recently. They know I carry knives and have seen my large regular many times with no reaction, the same could not be said with the 21. The response was that it was " too pointy and dagger like ". And not everyone there was female, the guys gave me the same or similar comments. Regular all the way for me.

 

[aznpos531]

Oh now that's a beautiful pairing. Looks real classy. Thanks for sharing the pictures!

Nice pics and thanks for sharing. I have seen instances where pieces do "seem" to fit, much like DallasSTB. But it is rare and the knife is not covered under warranty.

This combo is what the "P" sebenza looked like. God I wish they would offer that combo again. I personally find the regular blade far superior to the 21 in design and function. I had family members jump back when I opened a large 21 recently. They know I carry knives and have seen my large regular many times with no reaction, the same could not be said with the 21. The response was that it was " too pointy and dagger like ". And not everyone there was female, the guys gave me the same or similar comments. Regular all the way for me.

That's funny. I would have thought the broader profile of the regular blade would be more intimidating.

 

[marthinus]

That's funny. I would have thought the broader profile of the regular blade would be more intimidating.

A blade with more belly to it (as on the regular) is more of a hunting knife design IMO and therefore might create the impression of a working/hunting knife, but a sharp pointy blade might create the image of a dagger or even a shank. This has been my experience.

As for Franken-Seb. One can get lucky, but with my questions to CRK and their manufacturing process (one day I will still visit them as it is a dream of mine but they sure must be tired of my email questions) handles, blade are machined, afterwords special equipment has been designed to do the hollow grinds, spine of the blade etc by hand and then final fit and finish requires hand assembling and fine tuning by hand. All these surface grinding is kept to 0.0001 of an inch.

I remember a machinist once mentioning on the Spyderco forum that CNCing a handle scale or blade to those tolerances are really easy, but surface grinding kept to those tolerances requires special machines and one key eye.

So I have to agree with nyefmaker that though these are higher end production knives due to the hand tuning in each individual knife it should not be done.

 

[Mike V]

So I'm not allowed to swap the blade from one knife to the other.

How about if I send two knives back to the factory, will they swap the blades around for me?

Would this be Kosher i.e. retain warranty etc?

 

[nyefmaker]

So I'm not allowed to swap the blade from one knife to the other.

How about if I send two knives back to the factory, will they swap the blades around for me?

Would this be Kosher i.e. retain warranty etc?

You can swap all you want, but when there becomes an issue, the warranty is voided.........You would have to call CRK, but I highly doubt they would swap blades. I Know without saying they will not put a regular blade with a 21 frame or vice versa and I highly doubt they would even swap blades among common frames like regular to regular or 21 to 21.

 

[Medic1210]

By rule, they will not work as each crk blade is fitted to the frame lock by machining the slightest amount off the blade tang. Even though crk has the tightest specs in the industry ( I havent seen anyone come close ), there is still variances. You will see many blade combos on here in pics:

No rule, just hearsay. That's what CRK wants people to believe so they'll pay to have a new blade installed on their knives. By rule, the tighter the manufacturing tolerances of each knife, the more identical, and as such, more swappable the parts become. People say it doesn't work all the time, but I have done it, and it works perfectly. No change in lockup for either knife, and I posted the photos to prove it. People have even swapped 21 blades into regular handles and regular blades into 21 handles without issue. To the OP... they're your knives, do with them as you wish. I made my Insingo perfect by swapping it with Micarta handles. Absolutely NO problems at all. Had I let the chorus of naysayers change my mind about trying it, I wouldn't have the perfect knife now. It is now my perfect EDC.

Edit: Just thought I'd add that I'm not trying to be confrontational. Just trying to give my view that I garnered not from speculation, but rather from actual experience. I'm the type of person that would rather actually try something for himself to see if it would work rather than listen to folks that haven't done it tell me why it can't be done. So far, in my experience, it works without any problems at all. If I do it again on a different knife, and find issues, then I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. Until then, I am comfortable with my choice and the results I got. As for warranty, well, I've never even had to use a warranty on one of my low-tolerance cheap knives or Benchmades, so I can't imagine I'll ever need to use the warranty on something as high quality, with tight tolerances as a Sebenza. As an aside, I find it quite ironic how many times I've read folks say this won't work because of the tight tolerances, and yet I have heard numerous suggestions that someone should sand their washers down a bit to make their Sebbie open smoother. Really?!? To the OP, I say swap every combination you can with your knives, if anything just to see how well it works. Document your lockup with photos both before as well as after, and report if you have any issues. Please include the photos showing why it didn't work if you have issues.

 

[zyhano]

No rule, just hearsay. That's what CRK wants people to believe so they'll pay to have a new blade installed on their knives. By rule, the tighter the manufacturing tolerances of each knife, the more identical, and as such, more swappable the parts become. People say it doesn't work all the time, but I have done it, and it works perfectly. No change in lockup for either knife, and I posted the photos to prove it. People have even swapped 21 blades into regular handles and regular blades into 21 handles without issue. To the OP... they're your knives, do with them as you wish. I made my Insingo perfect by swapping it with Micarta handles. Absolutely NO problems at all. Had I let the chorus of naysayers change my mind about trying it, I wouldn't have the perfect knife now. It is now my perfect EDC.

Edit: Just thought I'd add that I'm not trying to be confrontational. Just trying to give my view that I garnered not from speculation, but rather from actual experience. I'm the type of person that would rather actually try something for himself to see if it would work rather than listen to folks that haven't done it tell me why it can't be done. So far, in my experience, it works without any problems at all. If I do it again on a different knife, and find issues, then I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. Until then, I am comfortable with my choice and the results I got. As for warranty, well, I've never even had to use a warranty on one of my low-tolerance cheap knives or Benchmades, so I can't imagine I'll ever need to use the warranty on something as high quality, with tight tolerances as a Sebenza. As an aside, I find it quite ironic how many times I've read folks say this won't work because of the tight tolerances, and yet I have heard numerous suggestions that someone should sand their washers down a bit to make their Sebbie open smoother. Really?!? To the OP, I say swap every combination you can with your knives, if anything just to see how well it works. Document your lockup with photos both before as well as after, and report if you have any issues. Please include the photos showing why it didn't work if you have issues.

I like that :thumbup:
I've never actually thought about swapping since I'm not interested, but on face value, your story makes sense. And your mentality is something I strongly relate to. good post

 

[nyefmaker]

No rule, just hearsay. That's what CRK wants people to believe so they'll pay to have a new blade installed on their knives. By rule, the tighter the manufacturing tolerances of each knife, the more identical, and as such, more swappable the parts become. People say it doesn't work all the time, but I have done it, and it works perfectly. No change in lockup for either knife, and I posted the photos to prove it. People have even swapped 21 blades into regular handles and regular blades into 21 handles without issue. To the OP... they're your knives, do with them as you wish. I made my Insingo perfect by swapping it with Micarta handles. Absolutely NO problems at all. Had I let the chorus of naysayers change my mind about trying it, I wouldn't have the perfect knife now. It is now my perfect EDC.

Edit: Just thought I'd add that I'm not trying to be confrontational. Just trying to give my view that I garnered not from speculation, but rather from actual experience. I'm the type of person that would rather actually try something for himself to see if it would work rather than listen to folks that haven't done it tell me why it can't be done. So far, in my experience, it works without any problems at all. If I do it again on a different knife, and find issues, then I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. Until then, I am comfortable with my choice and the results I got. As for warranty, well, I've never even had to use a warranty on one of my low-tolerance cheap knives or Benchmades, so I can't imagine I'll ever need to use the warranty on something as high quality, with tight tolerances as a Sebenza. As an aside, I find it quite ironic how many times I've read folks say this won't work because of the tight tolerances, and yet I have heard numerous suggestions that someone should sand their washers down a bit to make their Sebbie open smoother. Really?!? To the OP, I say swap every combination you can with your knives, if anything just to see how well it works. Document your lockup with photos both before as well as after, and report if you have any issues. Please include the photos showing why it didn't work if you have issues.

It is the rule of thumb. I have tried switching several regulars and none of them really fit right. Like another poster said, when you tighten down the blade screw, many of them would not budge because of washer thickness. And your talking variances of .001 +/-. Some would have full 100 lockup, while others would be a Hinderer like 10%.........Its just a matter of opinion and luck. But it is certainly not advised............ I know Chris, and I highly doubt he would state this to sell more sebenzas, thats absurd.

If you plan on keeping the knives, you can play switch-er-roo all you want, the real issue is that people are switching them around, then selling them as new from the factory to the unsuspecting resulting in warranty issues.

 

[marthinus]

It is the rule of thumb. I have tried switching several regulars and none of them really fit right. Like another poster said, when you tighten down the blade screw, many of them would not budge because of washer thickness. And your talking variances of .001 +/-. Some would have full 100 lockup, while others would be a Hinderer like 10%.........Its just a matter of opinion and luck. But it is certainly not advised............ I know Chris, and I highly doubt he would state this to sell more sebenzas, thats absurd.

If you plan on keeping the knives, you can play switch-er-roo all you want, the real issue is that people are switching them around, then selling them as new from the factory to the unsuspecting resulting in warranty issues.

This is where the issue of swapping blades become a real pain for those that are not familiar with CRK. We had this issue very recently and the seller pretty much lied about the condition. Thank goodness a member here bought it with a plan to have it sent back to CRK.

Medic, you make great points, but there are also many people on the forums with multiple Sebenzas that have tried it and it did not work (so the opposite side of the coin can also not be ignored). I have read far more of them not working then the few that have worked. Each one said lockup had play or was difficult to open.

As for the saying about sanding down the washers lightly, that is one logic I could never agree with. Just use the knife and it will smooth over time. No need for sanding.

 

[jackthedog]

I put a Micarta/ Insingo together, I can't wait for this combo to come from CRK.

This is the combination I'm waiting for.

 

[DallasSTB]

No rule, just hearsay. That's what CRK wants people to believe so they'll pay to have a new blade installed on their knives...

I don't want to wade into these deep waters again, but I need to point out that I feel this assumption is dead wrong. I don't want to speak for Chris, but all I've ever witnessed is his passion to produce a finely-tuned, precision cutting instrument for prices that are reasonable. I don't think that you could argue that swapping blades (or any parts) carries the risk for degrading the performance of the knife, at least in the maker's eyes.

Our opinions really are not that different up until the point were the knives leave your house and hit the aftermarket, like Nyef said. It has been recently documented that these franken-seb's occasionally do emerge with no disclosure whatsoever. Plus, after discussions with the shop and some our more esteemed colleagues, I know that significant amount of CRK's warranty work deals with the issue of swapped parts.

 

[stjames]

This is the combination I'm waiting for.

You both need to call Heather on Monday; your dreams have come true!

 

[CAD]

You both need to call Heather on Monday; your dreams have come true!

Your not joking are you?


Chris D.