Freehand frustrations

S

Shecki

Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Messages
12
Hi there. So....this is my first post really in this forum. I'm pretty new to the knife world. Prior to a couple of months ago....I never would have carried a knife on a daily basis....but recently started to do so. I've always had a fascination of being able to maintain things to work the way they should and are intended to. I used to sharpen my kitchen knives with a chefs choice sharpener...simply because I thought the was the only way you were supposed to. Little did I know...ha.

So, I've bought a couple of simple, low budget knives. A Kershaw Cryo, a Spyderco Sage2, and a Leatherman CX Skeletool. Shortly after, I purchased a sharpmaker. A shortly after that...upon some research on here and youtube, I decided that I wanted to try my hand at free handing. Well, this is where it starts to get tricky...for me anyway.

I bought a 2 sides DMT Diasharp stone. I bought the extra corse/corse stone thinking I could use this to re-profile/set the bevel and finish from the stone to the sharpmaker. After all, I've seen some of you get some great edges just with the corse DMT. Well, I was definitely my putting that Sage2 on that stone until I felt like I had a good handle on it....and, well.....I don't.

I tried my hand at this with the Leatherman (154CM) and I think I might have the bevels pretty damn uneven. I'd rather not go drop $400 on a wicked edge....but at the same time I want to get as close to perfect edges as I can with the tools I have. I also bought a set of the UF rods for the sharpmaker as well.

How do I get this freehand thing down? I guess my biggest problem is not knowing what angle I'm at and it seems like a lot of guess work. Is there anyway to know what angle I'm sharpening at? Any info to help a new guy is greatly appreciated. Thanks fellas!
 
I got a very uneven bevel on my first tries too, but I practised on cheap kitchen knives (chef knives and paring knives) until I got it down (more or less). I don't know what angle I sharpen at when freehanding. I go by feeling and try to keep the edge pretty thin for my own knives (which will lead to ugly bevels while learning). I guess you could finish on the sharpmaker if you shot for something a bit thinner/more acute on the coarse stones. As for holding the angle, check your progress often to see where you're grinding away metal and don't push so much with the hand you're keeping the angle with when moving the blade back and forth as this, for me at least, makes the blade rock. I actually keep the blade steadier with my left (weak) hand. Not sure if this helps much.
 
mrdeus....that certainly helps and I will take any and all info available to me. Thanks. I've been trying to keep hand very steady. Trying to only curve the knife, and at the same angle, when I get to the tip. I think I might have just worked one side a little more than the other. I have no shortage of cheap kitchen knives in the house....so I'll try and make short work of those, sharpie them up and see where that leads me. I'd prefer to learn freehand as opposed to a guided system simply because it's a skill and it'd be nice to know how to do. Hopefully I can get it down. Thanks for your advice...it's much appreciated!
 
Practice and focus. I've sharpened both freehand and with systems for decades now, and can still screw something up if I'm not focused on the task. That's part of the journey though isn't it?
 
Yes, sir. I guess the only frustrating part is not even knowing what angle I'm putting on the knife while I try my hand (pun intended) at freehand. It makes it tough to go to the sharpmaker to finish the job if the angle isn't close to the same as the 30 or 40 inclusive preset to the system. I guess just more practice. Thanks for the help. It's much appreciated!
 
I'll give you a little nugget that helped me find the right angle. I like to shoot for 30 inclusive or slightly less. Set up your sharpmaker on the 30 degree setting and set your knife up to it like you are going to sharpen it. When holding the knife straight up and down you can see the angle between the blade and the sharpening rod. Place your thumb on the spine so it touches the rod too. Leaving your thumb on the spine just move over to you bench stone and set the blade down until you thumb touches the surface. That will give you a better ballpark to start with. And the sharpie is your best friend!
 
Morning all! I've been reading on here quite awhile and have heard others reference the "sharpie trick". The way I understand this, is to mark a line on the edge of the blade to reveal where metal is being removed. My question is, what does it have to do with getting the angle one desires? How do you know if you're getting a 30degree or 26degree? If you equally grind off the mark on both sides, will it be the same angle on both sides?
 
Bighaze...Thanks for that! Yeah, I've been trying to visualize what the blade looks like with the angle on the sharpmaker if the sharpmaker was flat and the blade was angled. I think your tip will help me get a feel for that angle considering it's a little tough to figure out when the stone if flat on the table. Pretty positive my wife thinks in out of my mind at this point with the amount of attention I've given this in the last couple weeks.
 
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Rafterp.....that's kind of the same problem I'm having...because if you grind the sharpie off, that just means your angle is consistent to what's already there. If your starting with an uneven bevel to begin with, I think you're only keeping that uneven bevel that you had. I guess it's more of a feel for the angle?
 
Actually, something that helped me with the grip and angle was a scene from this video (3m51s and a few seconds onward): http://youtu.be/SIw5ChGOADE?t=3m51s. Gripping the blade with a pinch grip, or at least keeping the thumb on the side of the blade, with the hand controlling the angle.
 
Shecki, to learn free hand sharpening is easy once you do one big thing; stop over thinking it.

Stop thinking about angle, and just feel the edge on the stone. Take the knife and lay the blade on the stone at 90 degrees, like your going to try to cut the stone inhale. The lay the blade over 1/2 of that distance. That puts you in the neighborhood of 45 degrees. Now, tilt the blade over some more until you cut that angle in half. This put you in the neighborhood of where you want to be. Then without taking the blade off the stone, start sharpening in small circles, from the kick of the blade to the tip. Take a minute or two to get to the tip of the blade. Then you do the opposite side of the blade. Repeat as needed.

Don't worry so much about exact angle, micro bevels and all that. Just concentrate on the small circles from the base of the blade to the tip, and always starting out at 90 degrees, and tilting the blade over in two steps, each time cutting the 90 degree angle in half. Use the Sharpie trick to see where your sharpening. Once you develop a feel for this, you'll be able to resharpen your knife anywhere, using just about anything from a brick to a coffee mug bottom, or smooth stone out of a creek. It becomes instinctive, just like shooting a traditional recurve or long longbow.

The more you concentrate and think about it, the harder you make it for yourself.
 
Shecki I'm no expert either, but since I don't have a guided system, I haven't really worried about angles. I try to sharpen until I feel a consistent burr down the entire edge, then flip sides and do the same, then strop with a leather strop and white compound. One point I heard the other day on a youtube vid, was to get the blade shaving sharp with the course blade before beginning to try to refine the edge; otherwise one is just polishing a bad edge. Does that make sense to ya'll?
 
Practice until you get a even bevel on both sides, making a visual note on how you are holding the blade to the stone. Next use the sharpie on the edge and proceed to the sharpmaker. Taking a few passeses on the ceramic you can now see if you are getting 30 or 40 degrees inclusive. You can now make any adjustments to the angle you hold your knife at when using the stones. This should get you in the ballpark as to the angle you want to establish on the blade. Hope this makes sense.
Ron
 
I'm not terribly concerned with the exact angle. I shoot for slightly less. That way, I can finish off with a microbevel on the fine rods with the sharpmaker at 30 degrees. I just recently wa able to go to hair whittling sharp completely freehand. I finished off with a 12k Chinese stone. That was awesome. The more you do it, the more natural it feels. Like everyone has said, start with a cheap knife that you aren't really worried about messing up. Eventually you'll build the confidence and skill to do it with your good knives.
 
I appreciate all of the input. I'm going to give it another go tonight on some of my knives here in the kitchen. All relatively inexpensive and easily replaceable if I screw it up to bad. Thanks for the feedback, guys!
 
Shecki said:
I appreciate all of the input. I'm going to give it another go tonight on some of my knives here in the kitchen. All relatively inexpensive and easily replaceable if I screw it up to bad. Thanks for the feedback, guys!
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My 2cents, use some soapy water on those DMTs when working softer steels. This seems to improve feedback and tame the abrasive qualities of the diamond a bit. Otherwise, they can be so effective on softer metals you'll have a tough time telling where on the bevel you are. I also highly recommend watching a couple of Murray Carter videos and check out his scrubbing method - is a strong technique for holding good angle control. I also would stick with the coarse DMT and just get used to that, creating a burr, removing the burr. Advance to a finer stone as you become more proficient.
 
Heavy....that's some great info and it's much appreciated. I've tried both running the DMT dry and running it wet with a speck of dish soap on there to keep the water spread out even. We'll just keep practicing on some of the steel in the house here. I'll certainly so a search on Murray Carter as well and give everything a watch. Thanks for your time!
 
first, try a steep sharpening bevel; maybe 20 to 25 degrees per side. The angles left and right will be more uniform that way. If you're anything like me, you'll likely ruin the right side of the blade (the one you sharpen edge towards you if you're right-handed.) I ruined my zdp endura that way when i tried to bring it down to les than 10 degrees per.

Once you get the hang of maintaining angles, you could try bring it down the next time.
 
jackknife said:
Shecki, to learn free hand sharpening is easy once you do one big thing; stop over thinking it.

Stop thinking about angle, and just feel the edge on the stone. Take the knife and lay the blade on the stone at 90 degrees, like your going to try to cut the stone inhale. The lay the blade over 1/2 of that distance. That puts you in the neighborhood of 45 degrees. Now, tilt the blade over some more until you cut that angle in half. This put you in the neighborhood of where you want to be. Then without taking the blade off the stone, start sharpening in small circles, from the kick of the blade to the tip. Take a minute or two to get to the tip of the blade. Then you do the opposite side of the blade. Repeat as needed.

Don't worry so much about exact angle, micro bevels and all that. Just concentrate on the small circles from the base of the blade to the tip, and always starting out at 90 degrees, and tilting the blade over in two steps, each time cutting the 90 degree angle in half. Use the Sharpie trick to see where your sharpening. Once you develop a feel for this, you'll be able to resharpen your knife anywhere, using just about anything from a brick to a coffee mug bottom, or smooth stone out of a creek. It becomes instinctive, just like shooting a traditional recurve or long longbow.

The more you concentrate and think about it, the harder you make it for yourself.
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This is the best advice you've gotten so far, practice is what's important, . You can use a protractor to see what angle you're on, I've heard of members stacking pennies to get an angle reference. Personally, muscle memory through repetition is the best tool, as you practice you'll begin to feel how the drag/resistance on the blade changes when you get closer to the majority of the blades current angle, the Sharpie come in handy when your changing that primary angle and you need a reference to keep you on the correct/chosen angle. Another trick I use is to use my thumb as a wedge/spacer against the spine and with my thumb (and now pretty much any finger) between the stones/hones and the blade.

I've also hold the knife in my one hand and use the stone like a file to sharpen larger blades with smaller stones/hones mostly for reprofiling and the belly on skinners and clip blades.

Like Jack mentioned to, if your using your knife don't get so hung up on precise angle, unfortunately if your dealing with the modern super steels in 62+rc use a system with a jig, it's not impossible to do super steels freehand but it does require a lot of patience and experience.

I'm leave you with one last bit of advice, if your like most people learning to sharpen freehand, you equate pushing harder with maintaining angle, that's a common misconception. If your using the right done for the job and type of steel you won't have to push so hard and will have a much easier time staying within your desired angle.

Crisp bevels look great and make for precise edge geometry but on user knives it's a bit of overkill, look up convex/Moran edge this is a true working man's edge and relatively easy to maintain.
 
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