From a collector/investment standpoint, how prolific should a maker be.

CUTS LIKE A KRIS

CUTS LIKE A KRIS

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Sep 28, 2005
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I collect and make knives meant for use over other artistic varieties, and am wondering how many knives you feel a maker should optimally produce to take advantage of market position and return on investment. I understand many factors come into play and I'm sure that it is different for makers such as Lorchner or a Moran, as compared to a newer maker without a top echelon name, but I am sure it affects their knives as well. I am looking at this from both spectrums- too few knives and the interest wanes, too many and the market is saturated. I've seen the saturation a bit with one maker that I have a number of knives from. While as a collector I like a maker that pumps out many different blades of different designs at a reasonable price so I can afford to collect diversity, I see this as a negative from an investment perspective.

If you feel like stating your parameters feel free, be it in a specific price range, knife style, or any other factor. I doubt I will ever be a 'name' in knife making, one never knows how life will change, and it would be a good discussion for new makers/collectors as well as others perhaps taking a step back and reconsidering things.

(I hope my mental ramblings are intelligible enough, my brain is not my friend today)
 
Hi Kris (Is it Kris? I honestly don't know.)

I'm hard pressed to offer much input for you, mainly because I'm flummoxed how you are querying 'investment' directions at your level, and I wonder how many here know you.

Not a Knifemaker membership.
Cryptic screen name.
No posts in here to show your work.

Man, I don't mean to come on hard, but revealing your name is the FIRST step in getting name recognition. Investment opportunities are a lonnnnnnng ways from that.

I mean, right?

Clarify: Investment in your equipment as a maker, or investment in your knives as a collector? Yeah, I'm cornfused.

Now all that said, it's a heavy topic, no matter WHO the brand name is. LOL!

Broad strokes: At first put out as much quality as you can. Get your work in everyone's hands. Then, in time the demand will rise, and so will your build processes and complexity. Then the supply and demand start working in your favor.

Less would then be more. :)

Coop
 
Good question! Is there such a thing as recipe for success? Can a maker ruin his chances making too many knives, and limit his reward, flood his supply before there is much demand? How much is too much, and how much is too little for any recognition, or success?
I dont know. Les Robertson would be a good one to ask. Or, any makers here wil have a perspective on this.
How do we get them to speak up, offer words of wisdom?
David
 
You are correct MANY factors come into play. First, concentrate on making a good quality knife that will be in demand.
I find many newer makers produce larger quantity of so-so to poor knives.

For example, I've seen makers take 10-12 sub-par knives to their first Blade Show as opposed to taking 3 of the very best knives they can possible make.
Their reasoning being they need profit from 12 knives to pay for their trip. If you can't take your very best then you should probably not go.
 
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To me, if you are buying knives as a monetary investment tool, you are probably not going to be happy with your results long term. Just too much "whim" in the market. If I wanted a ROI outside the norm, I'd be buying things like 5.56, 9mm ammo and 30rd magazines right now and flipping them short term for a 10-15% ROI-- because that's what hot right now. I kind of see knives like cars and watches, If you enjoy using them, and can extract the opportunity cost from the daily use, then you can buy a 500.00 knife, use it for a while, sell it at a loss for 400.00 and still be way ahead in the "enjoyment" category than buying a 30.00 knife. selling it for 5.00 and going out for a 75.00 dinner and sustaining the same ROI. If you want to get rich, make measurable money or the sort, buying collectable knives is not the way to do it in my opinion. Your results may vary and there are some awesome makers that I "hope" will ultimately keep their value over time, but at the end of the day, my "investments" are more likely to be returned in the woods than in the resale.

It's all ultimately subjective, but given a day off work, to head to my little patch of woods, wielding my blades, cooking up a bit of fire is worth quite a bit for me. I enjoy it more than a lot of things I'd spend money on comparable to a new knife.
 
Sorry Coop, my name is Kris, and I meant the question more as how collectors look at a perspective makers output and how it influences their choices. I was not speaking for my own knives, which I do not have a market for, nor do I have the time/equipment to pump out quantities of knives. I just finished my 20th knife, which made my output for the past year at 5, after taking ~2 years off due to living situation. I have not posted knives here as I did not feel they would be well received, based on past lack of comments/poor reaction in the makers section. Perhaps I will do an introduction to my attempts here and see what I can learn (but away from this thread). I am not an investment collector, all of the knives I own save one or two have been put through their paced to help me educate myself on what I do and do not like with knife design. I was wanting to pick the minds of those who collect with an eye toward having the knife leave their possession for more funds than it came into the collection for. This is unknown territory for me, and with all things in life if I cannot fathom it, I try and ask those that can.

One thing that helped precipitate the idea in my head was after I bought a collection of one makers work, and the vendor asked that I not show many of them online, as his current slip joint customers would hold his non-traditional attempts against him and loose sales as a result. I had not realized the slip joint market as that volitile, and started to consider other aspects that affect the maker, future market, investment collectors etc. I was very surprised to find out what is a seemingly friendly community could potentially be unforgiving of past endeavours.

So, without considering me at all, what do collectors feel is a good output for a maker in order to maintain a solid collector base/profitable secondary market? I haven't seen the subject of output discussed and thought it was a worthwhile topic.
 
I just wanted to bring this thread up one more time. Does anybody else have anything to add on their opinions of how many knives they feel makers should or shouldn't put out in order to maintain/increase desireability?
 
There are many things that can effect a makers value

First there has to be a demand for his work then the demand must exceed the supply to a certain degree if you want to see prices rise on the secondary market

One thing that can lower a makers works value is say someone with a very large collection of a hot makers work dies or dumps the collection on the market

This will in my experience lower the value of the Makers work till they get cycled thru

So for all you aspiring rock star makers make sure ya don't sell all your knives to one guy :)
 
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CUTS LIKE A KRIS said:
I just wanted to bring this thread up one more time. Does anybody else have anything to add on their opinions of how many knives they feel makers should or shouldn't put out in order to maintain/increase desireability?
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Kris you always want to make just enough that they are hard to get :)
 
Great thread!

You need to make a lot of knives but have a whole lot more people trying to buy them. :D
 
There's no magic number as each maker's market will drive what his/her production should be.

A maker should first concentrate on creating the very best knife he can make every time.
Know his costs and market so as to price knives realistically.
Know what his sales/production needs to be in order to continue to stay in business (if they make knives as a business, not as a hobby).
And as Joe says, try to slightly under produce your demand.

A knifemaker should realize that his/her secondary market greatly influences their primary market.
 
Kevin Jones said:
There's no magic number as each maker's market will drive what his/her production should be.

A maker should first concentrate on creating the very best knife he can make every time.
Know his costs and market so as to price knives realistically.
Know what his sales/production needs to be in order to continue to stay in business (if they make knives as a business, not as a hobby).
And as Joe says, try to slightly under produce your demand.

A knifemaker should realize that his/her secondary market greatly influences their primary market.
Click to expand...

Kevin's last sentence is very important and very correct :)
 
I agree, there is a direct relationship.

I was kind of kidding about making a lot of knives, that depends on the maker. A high demand is key.
 
Kris,

Thanks for the clarification of your intent. I'm understanding better now.

Like all things: it depends.

If you put out only 6-12 knives a year (Wolfgang Loerchner), AND you get to be in demand, you can bet the secondary market will increase.

Mike Snody pumped out 500 utility 'Bosses' last year. I would bet every one of them would attain over than the initial $100 (I think?) he was asking.

Both represent current successful makers. Both veteran makers.

My guess is that the numbers equation can only be impemented in a return of value scenario, until the maker has established themselves. Established = top quality in build and design and customer satisfaction. Of course you need all three. This will take years.

I'm learning here too. It's the infamous 'investment' thread again, in many aspects. ;)

Coop
 
CUTS LIKE A KRIS said:
I just wanted to bring this thread up one more time. Does anybody else have anything to add on their opinions of how many knives they feel makers should or shouldn't put out in order to maintain/increase desireability?
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Your a smart dude. You are putting a tremendous amount of thought into this subject and you will succeed as a result.

Its all up to you. Do you want to fish in a little pond or do want to fish in the ocean..

If you want to make 6 knives per year you can sell them in your hometown
If you want to make 60 knives per year you need to work Bladeforums.
If you want to make 600 knives per year you need to work knife shows and all social media related to cutlery.
If you want to make 6000 knives per year you to need advertise, work all shows and all social media period, cooking forums, cigar forums, cologne forums, youtube, etc, etc, etc.
If you want to make 60,000 knives per year you can do that. That is the wonderful thing about Capitalism.

Do not worry about Saturating the Marketplace with "Your Knives" worry only about Saturating the Marketplace with "Your Message"

There are over 1 Million Millionaires in the United States and down here in Texas they are paying welders $85.00 per hour.
Inspectors in the Eagleford Shale are making over $1,000.00 per day and my friend just took an inspection job in Korea paying $3,000 per day.
There are plenty of folks out there to buy your knives if you are willing to seek them out.
They are not all on the forums and they do not buy knife magazines.
There is a political backlash that is inevitable.
When you move up that list I presented you will undoubtedly be accused of "selling out"

It is kind of like a 'garage band" that everyone loves but when they start getting radio play the fans drop them and claim they "SOLD OUT"

How many times have you guys seen that happen?

I know guys who spend 100 hours per knife, work seven days a week and average about 32 knives per year.
I know guys who spend 3 hours per knife, work seven days a week and average about 1,000 knives per year.

Knife makers work hard and the number of knives they produce annually is usually a direct result of their manufacturing methods and the amount of time they spend on each piece.

Every knifemaker is passionate about their craft and as a result they worker harder and sacrifice more for their profession than other business sectors.
It is very hard to compete with people who have this mindset because often times the passion will fuel them through hard times that otherwise would have dictated a career choice.

Much Respect from Texas.
[video=youtube;l5yCLe4fP4E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5yCLe4fP4E[/video]
 
My opinion is that a maker should produce the maximum number of knives possible based on demand and on the maker maintaining the highest quality possible.
 
Except for some stars (Loerchner, Walker to name the most famous), there's no secondary market when you don't make enough knives : you might be very talented, spend hours and hours on the knives, if you put only a few knives a year on the market, it is not enough to feed the secondary market. You need to be visible, and I think it demands a minimum production. I collect knives from Karl-Heinz Koob, who used to be a famous german maker in the early 90's. He makes integral knives, such as Dietmar Kressler does. According to everyone who handled them, he's far better than Kressler. The problem is that he stopped making knives during several years, and he currently makes around 6 knives a year. You would expect them to get value since they're rare and very top quality. Actually they don't. They only keep their value, because there's not enough knives to feed a secondary market.
 
Patrick M. said:
Except for some stars (Loerchner, Walker to name the most famous), there's no secondary market when you don't make enough knives : you might be very talented, spend hours and hours on the knives, if you put only a few knives a year on the market, it is not enough to feed the secondary market. You need to be visible, and I think it demands a minimum production. I collect knives from Karl-Heinz Koob, who used to be a famous german maker in the early 90's. He makes integral knives, such as Dietmar Kressler does. According to everyone who handled them, he's far better than Kressler. The problem is that he stopped making knives during several years, and he currently makes around 6 knives a year. You would expect them to get value since they're rare and very top quality. Actually they don't. They only keep their value, because there's not enough knives to feed a secondary market.
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I agree, that anyone who only makes a few knives a year isn't going to have a secondary market or at least much of one, however with few exceptions a maker is not going to be able to make a living only producing a few knives per year. Thus they are generally going to be hobbyist makers.
 
Something to think about is the difference between investment value in the short run, and true "collectibility".
To be a valuable investment, it needs only to be able to sell for more than retail price at any time after purchase ie. Lorchner, Snody, etc. to be truly collectible as in Case knives, Randal, etc. there needs to be enough of them for people to actually "collect"them... That's a pretty large number, at least in the thousands.
Just my thoughts...
Adam.
 
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