GATCO vs. Lansky

[BostonBull]

From my previous thread it seems there are 4 systems that are recommended besides just hand sharpening with stones.

Edge Pro....Too much $$$

SharpMaker......Seems a little tricky to master, almost like free handing. And I think I would rather master free handing than this device....?

Lansky

GATCO

The last two seem very similar right down to the carry case. The prices for the Pro Diamond versions are close to each other. They seem pretty simple to use and master. And from what I have read seem to put quite the good edge on a blade.

So which one do you guys recommend?

I read back through 5 forum pages and couldn't find any talk of these two being compared.

 

[znode]

The Sharpmaker is definitely not "almost like free handing". It takes a lot of practice to hold an angle; it takes no practice to hold a vertical.

I own a Lansky and have played with a Sharpmaker; I would definitely recommend the Sharpmaker. No messing around with mounting jigs and screws, and the overall build quality is great. It gives you some background on freehanding, while being very easy to use, and eventually, you can convert it into a benchstone by putting the rods in case slots.

 

[oldfogey]

I'll follow this with interest..........as I'm somewhat in the same quandary.

My question is this: Aren't both the "Lansky & Gatco" "pull-thru" sharpeners?? I've heard that those are not the best for the quality of knife most of us here are dealing with??

Not trying to influence your decision at all, as I've been following the threads for the same reason, and sharing my thoughts. To each his own.


I have come to the conclusion that for myself,for the price of the "Apex" (about twice the "Sharpmaker", it seems), that I would be much happier with the "EdgePro".

 

[cinteal]

I THINK Lansky has been out longer, thus more places carry them. There are also more stones for Lansky, including soft, hard, and black Arkansas Stones. That should be enough reason to purchase the Lansky above the GATCO, but there are other reasons, too.

Repeatability is the big thing about Lansky. . When you insert the rod in a Lansky, the rod's orientation in reference to the stone face is variable. This is both bad and good. Bad in that it leaves the possibility for bad alignments. If you don't accurately align the rod, when you move through grits, you get different angles on the blade bevel. However, if you make sure that the rod and stone face are on the same plane, you sharpen at the same angel when moving through grits. To get the rod and stone on the same plane

1. Insert the rod in the stone holder, but DO NOT tighten the thumbscrew.

2. Holding the stone flat on a flat surface (table, granite block, etc.), push the rod to the flat surface so that the apex of the 90 degree angle touches the flat surface.

3. Tighten the thumbscrew securely.

4. Now, without any pressure on the stone, observe how the rod and stone sit on the flat surace. They should lay flat together on the same plane from the end of the stone to the tip of the rod.
4a. If the rod end of the stone rises above the surface, bend the rod (at the 90 degree angle) UP (less than 90 degrees) until the stone and rod together lie flat on the flat surface (same plane).
4b. If the tip of the rod rises above the flat surface, bend the rod (at the 90 degree angle) DOWN (greater than 90 degrees) until the stone and rod together lie flat on the flat surface (same plane).

Try not to bend the rod in the middle. There are cool things you can do with a bent rod, but initially it will cause you problems until you get your mind around how the Lansky works. Same holds true for the Great American Tool Company's tool.

You do not have the rod variability with GATCO. This is actually not a good thing. If you ever have to flatten a stone (and you will), you reduce the distance between the plane of the rod and the plane of the stone face. This difference in elevation may be (is, probably) different from stone to stone, thus creating slightly different angles/bevels when honing. With the Lansky, you can accomodate the differences in stone height.

If anyone has questions about what the hell I'm talking about, I'll try and provide pics in a different thread.

My suggestion about setting up a Lansky is that you leave the rod in the stone holder until you have to flatten the stone (if your wife doesn't mind you leaving your sharpening stuff out).

One positive thing about GATCO stones, you can see the end of them - both ends. The top end of the Lansky stones is hidden by the the plastic handle where the rod attaches. IF you're not paying attention, you can draw the stone back too far and nick the edge of your blade with a Lansky. You can do this with a GATCO, too, but you can at least see the end of the GATCO stone to know when you get close. Be careful and either one works fine in this regard.

cinteal

 

[cinteal]

My question is this: Aren't both the "Lansky & Gatco" "pull-thru" sharpeners?? I've heard that those are not the best for the quality of knife most of us here are dealing with??

Oldfogey,

Neither GATCO or Lansky are "pull-through" sharpeners. They only sharpen one bevel/side at a time - AT THE SAME ANGLE on each side. That's the purpose of the jig.

Love the handle, BTW.

cinteal

 

[cinteal]

The Sharpmaker is definitely not "almost like free handing".

I agree with this statement from znode. At least the "almost" part, because the sharpmaker IS JUST LIKE freehanding. It's a crotchstick. Give the Sharpmaker all the praise you want, it's a crotchstick. Where it may be easier to hold a vertical than freehanding on a benchstone where your thumbs get in the way (knife sharpening, anyway), it's still freehanding by definition. Freehanding equals variability, whether on a benchstone or vertical on a crotchstick.

Again, the jig systems on Lansky and GATCO are designed to replicate the bevel as precisely as possible. This is the difference between a flat bevel (jig) and a convex one (freehand) - A supersharp but less durable edge vs. an edge not quite as sharp but more durable.

They both have their place, but a flat bevel stropped will ALWAYS be sharper than and almost as durable as a bevel made on a crotchstick, Spyderco or otherwise.

cinteal

 

[Rob Babcock]

It may look like a crockstick, but it wouldn't fit most people's definition of that word. A classic crockstick has 1 or 2 ceramic rods in a V, just one grit, usually a very fine one. The Sharmaker has different angle slots for triangular rods of several different factory grits, including diamond triangular rods. The Sharpmaker cuts, it doesn't just hone.

As for the rest...well, that's your call. The Apex is a bit expensive but you get what you pay for. If you decide to try it, BestKnives for $125 with just the most basic stones, and you can add more as you need them. They also carry the Sharpmaker (that's where I bought my SM).

If you opt for the Lansky I'd say the diamonds are the way to go. All of 'em will give you a good edge. Be advised the clamp system can get tedious, and care must be taken with some of them not to scratch up the blade. And the clamp doesn't hold all blade shapes well. That said, for most knives the Lansky and Gatco will be very effective. Of course, the same is tru for the Sharpmaker & Apex.

Good luck, and Merry Christmas!

 

[znode]

rod variability

Rod variability is exactly one of the major problems with the Lansky as a starter sharpening system. It requires knowledge of bevel angles and knowing how to adjust for them, and almost always takes significantly more time and trials to even get started sharpening. That's one of the most crucial aspects of a guided system - not frustrating the newbie into thinking that sharpening requires 30 years of practice or factory elf magic.

And how is teaching freehanding experience bad?

I agree with this statement from znode. At least the "almost" part, because the sharpmaker IS JUST LIKE freehanding. It's a crotchstick. Give the Sharpmaker all the praise you want, it's a crotchstick... They both have their place, but a flat bevel stropped will ALWAYS be sharper than and almost as durable as a bevel made on a crotchstick

Oh, so witty. Mind you, there is no such thing as a crotchstick, only a crock stick. And you use that term as if they're worthless pieces of junk. In fact, I suspect the "crotch" is semi-intentional.

Yes, freehanding means variability, but you seem to think variability to be a measurably bad thing. Is not the stropping process done by the "variable" human hand, or do you use a angled jig for that too? You think stropping compounds are microscopically uniform?

In fact, your posts shows fallacies all around. Of course a stropped Lansky edge will be sharper than a freehanding edge - it's stropped! Am I somehow prohibited from stropping if I use a Sharpmaker? With stropping for BOTH techniques, you really think a stropped Lansky edge will be measurably sharper than a stropped Sharpmaker or stropped freehanding edge? Or WITHOUT stropping, you really think a Lansky edge will be measurably sharper than a Sharpmaker edge?

A blade will be sharp as long as the bevels meet microscopically. Actual cutting performance is affected by the bevel shape, of course, but the bevel angle matters a lot more than if it's minutely convexed by the human hand. A perfectly flat 20-degree edge will not outperform a freehanded 15-degree edge.

 

[BostonBull]

Oh the thoughts running through my mind!

So heres what it comes down to; One of the above mentioned systems, or free hand stones?

What about the GATCO? There doesnt seem to be info on here or elsewhere about this system........

 

[oldfogey]

Thanks for the input about the "Lansky & Gatco" sharpeners. Didn't know how they worked, now I do.

Guess it pretty much boils down to personal preference..........

 

[znode]

Oh the thoughts running through my mind!

So heres what it comes down to; One of the above mentioned systems, or free hand stones?

If you have prior knowledge of the theory of sharpening (bevel angles, bevel shapes, the significance of a burr, stropping), you can get pretty much equivalent results on all three (though freehanding will take a bit of practice).

But since you're asking, it's more likely that you don't know fully the theory of sharpening. In which case the Sharpmaker would be much easier and less time-consuming to start with.

Both systems can make themselves into makeshift benchstones if needed be, but I've found Sharpmaker ceramic to be have better quality control than Lansky stones, though. With the original set of Lansky plus further stones I've purchased, I've seen cracking, raised bumpy edges on the stones, and so forth. Sharpmaker stones have always been ready to use out of the box. Of course, I might have just gotten a bad batch...

 

[kgd]

Interesting irony cinteal - 'crochstick' - it does look that way doesn't it.

Having used both the Lansky and sharpmaker I can't say I agree with you on the bit about how guided systems givec you more precision on edge angle. It seems this way in theory, but personally I haven't found this to be the case in actual practice. In fact, I found that the Landsky actually requires greater care (especially when rebevelling) to ensure even bevels on both sides of the knife.

I use the same procedure as was described by yourself to ensure the rod and stone face are even across stones. However, one has to also take care that the strokes are even when applying the stone to the knife edge. This is hard to do (or at least takes patience) as you tend is to want to grind away to increase the speed of the sharpening process, but the guide simply doesn't offer enough control to let you do this. Yes, if you are patient and keep an eye on the rod in the guide as well as the stone on the edge, then the result can be quite good.

Secondly, for large knives >5", I find that you really have to sharpen the knife in sections, reclamping mid-way otherwise the bevel becomes uneven from the back to front edge. Personally I find this rather annoying and time consuming. Engineering wise, the Lansky leaves a few things to be desired. The clamp, over time gets hard to fix to the blade, periodically falling off when sharpening. Over tightening the clamp leads to a scratch on the spine, or worse, the little red handle falling off (yeah mine fell off). I also found that the course stone washed out pretty quickly. I know replacements are cheap, but it wore down way faster then I thought it would.

The sharpmaker has some faults too. It's main one is that it is inefficient at rebevelling a knife. So if your knife isn't at 40o or 30o then you have a lot of work cut out to try and get the knife there. On the other hand the engineering of it is excellent, right down to the safety guides. In going from the Lansky crock sticks to the sharpmaker, I immediately saw the advantage of the triangle stones. Really fast and effective cutting on the corners, and better control particularly on the knife point when using the flats. The quality of the stones on the sharpmaker are orders of magnitude better than the rounded crock sticks. I can say that the Lansky and sharpmaker were equally effective in getting my Buck 119 hair shaving, newspring cutting sharp. I found the results to be more even and mostly much faster, resharpening the 119 on the sharpmaker though.

One other suggestion if the originaly poster really wants a guided system is to consider the DMT system. They produce high quality diamond stones, but I don't fully understand how the guide works on that one (hard to tell from the pictures). Many many members here have posted very favorable reviews of the DMT system though.

 

[cinteal]

I own several crotchsticks. On some, the ceramic rods are touching/crossing, some are not. My use of the term comes from the fact that on the packaging for all of them it says somehwere "Crotchstick". I also own a Spyderco Sharpmaker. It is stashed away with the other crotchsticks. That's not because I think it is a POS, it's simply because I use the Lansky to form a more accurate initial bevel then hone/resharpen on a strop. Best of both worlds - sharpness and durability.

I use the Lansky to sharpen the relatively short double bevel on knives - my pocket knife to be specific. My chisels, planes, and single bevel knives go on the waterstones. Their tall single bevel allows one to hold the bevel flat on the stone. Waterstones provide a superior edge to either the Lansky or Sharpmaker in terms of sharpness which is what I'm looking for in woodworking tools, especially planes. I would think with a pocket knife, durability would be important. A crotchstick provides this very well. But the Lansky makes an almost perfect bevel and the stop provides durability.

Once you get the hang of the Lansky set-up, it's not a big deal. I've been using one for years (10+) and don't even think about it anymore, so I'm glad Mr Babcock mentioned it, and he's right. There is a limit as to what is easily held in the jig. Long knives are somewhat problematic as bevel angles will vary between the tip, middle, and hilt end of the the blade. It's just the nature of the beast. On short knives (most pocketknives - Mine is a Benchmade TSEK) the difference is not noticable. On a chef's knife, you can see the difference quite easily - the bevel is taller at the tip and hilt than in the middle (knife clamped in the middle).

You can keep the bevel the same across the length of a long blade on a sharpmaker. I may pull my crotchsticks back out for kitchen use at some point, but my old butcher's steel works so wonderfully for kitchen purposes.

My main points here are that the sharpmaker produces a convex bevel. The Lansky produces a flat bevel. Convex is more durable, flat is sharper. If one doesn't know what a sharp blade looks like, if you can get past the set-up, I think a keen edge on a Lansky is more easily attained than on a crotchstick. Just less room for error.

cinteal

 

[BostonBull]

I want a guided system for the meantime. I really want to master sharpening by hand, like I do my chainsaw chains, so that I dont have to rely on a guide, and can sharpen anywhere.

So is it THAT hard to get a good edge, relatively soon by hand? I would like to just buy some stones and have at it, but some of the members here make it seem like it takes years of practice to get a knife REAL sharp, and durable on a stone by hand.

 

[FoxholeAtheist]

Sorry, cinteal, but a Sharpmaker does not produce a convex bevel. It produces a flat bevel with perhaps a tiny bit of variation due to being handheld... but regardless, it's a flat bevel.

Further, I googled both "crotchstick" and "crotch stick" +sharpen and had zero results (aside from this thread), so, frankly, I think you're either suffering from some reading comprehension issues or are just full of it. The proper term is, as has been noted, "crock stick".

Yet further, there is nothing inherently sharper about a flat bevel than a convex one; as long as both meet in a microscopically even line, the edge will be equally sharp. There is a lot of discussion about the relative durability of convex vs bevelled edges, with most people seeming to lean towards convex being more durable, so I'll give you that one.

You can avoid the changing-bevel issue on your Lansky by re-positioning the clamp on the blade while you are sharpening it. This won't fix the changing angle as the width of the knife decreases towards the point, but it will help. The Edge Pro system is superior in this respect because it's easy to move the knife along the shelf as you're sharpening to maintain that angle.

Per your "old butcher's steel" working great for your kitchen knives... do you actually ever sharpen the knives, or just steel them? A steel works fine to touch up rolled edges, but over time, you are actually dulling the edge due to abrasion, chipping, corrosion, etc will have to be resharpened by removing material back to good steel.

BostonBull: I'll stick by what I said in the other thread... with the caveat that it doesn't reprofile an edge very quickly, the Sharpmaker is the way to go for an easy-to-learn, easy-to-use system. If you want to expand it a bit, go for the Ultra-Fine stones, but if you ever think about the diamond stones, I would actually recommend against them. Buying them will pay for about half the cost of the basic Edge-Pro Apex kit, which will work much faster for that kind of thing.

 

[db]

Another + for the Lansky is you can get and use the DMT hones and rod with the Lansky clamp. I don't like the DMT clamp but useing the Lansky clamp with the DMT hones is the best of 2 systems. I free hand now but sharpening with a Lansky is really how I learned to free hand sharpen. I used the rod and hones facing up and held the knife by the handle and moved the knife instead of the hone. Same motion as free hand and after doing that for years found I could just free hand sharpen without the clamp or any jig.
Edited
BB free hand sharpening is really much easier than almost everyone thinks it is. If you want get a coarse stone and a fine one dont move to the fine one until you have gotten the knife sharp with the coarse one. The biggest thing I found is most people learning to sharpen stop with the coarse stone before they have gground enough to creat a good edge.

 

[thebrain]

hi don`t mean to but in ...but I have an older crock stick with two sets of stones and two sets of angle holes and I love it for EDC knives and kitchen stuff but I also have a lansky and a gatco ,ok so here we go lansky has better possibility of getting a consistent angle but the stones are too small for my taste if you have to sharpen a new blade(reprofile it)that takes forever with the smaller stones I have lots of the stones that come with the lansky as I busted off the set screw in my first one and it was starting to get worn out so I just got a new one ..so on to the gatco (older models should be avoided at all cost they have only one movable jaw so you would always have a off center edge) the stones are more like a nice norton bench stone the way they "cut" and they are more comfortable to use but I have noticed that the guide rods can and do wiggle(for lack of a better term) therefore they are not giving you a consistant angle I do like the gatco but I have to get some longer rods as they do not move around as much the farther they are into the stone the gatco clamp is wider and more useful for longer blades, the posible angles are different on a gatco and a lansky not sure why .thats all I can add also I have wanted to try a sharpmaker but I have to much sharpening stuff to spend the cash on one just to find out its just like the crock sticks.thanks for listening I hope this might help alittle

 

[cinteal]

This is fun!

znode, I didn't mean to offend. With the exception of the the $2 "crossing ceramic/carbide rod sharpening like gadgets", I don't think any method is POS. I call them "crotchsticks" simply because that is what I've heard them called and seen them sold as here in rural Arkansas for some 35 years - not in a derogatory manner. And though obviously sardonic, your comment on my "wit" - well it's just that. Please don't post Arkansas related synonyms .

To clear up, I use jigs to set/form the initial bevel. I can't remember the artist's name, but his claim to fame was that he could draw a perfect circle - freehand. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but just like most of us cannot draw a perfect circle freehand, most of us cannot put a flat bevel on a blade - freehand. Jigs do this wonderfully - some better than others, but still more accurately than freehand.

Once the bevel is set, freehand is the way to go. Why? - because it's damn hard to replicate the initial angle once the blade has been taken out of the jig and then replaced. Freehanded, one can get the bevel flat on a stone, regardles of angle - at least for tall bevels as one would find on chisels/single bevels.

However, the sharpest attainable edge is obtained from a flat bevel PRIOR to stropping. I am not saying that that edge will "outperform" a convex bevel. In several threads I have cautioned folks about using this bevel - it's not very durable. Megasharp! but deforms very rapidly. But it is sharper than an edge obtained from a Sharpmaker (convex bevel).

Because a flat edge is not durable, we strop. Stropping puts a very slight convex to the very edge of the bevel. From multidirectional force, an arch is stronger than a triangle - simple physics. (We also strop to remove a burr, but side sharpening on a 8000 - 16000 waterstone produces no burr). As far as the grading of compounds, uniformity depends on price in most cases, but I will agree that most available compounds are graded nominally not absolute. AND, though I don't use a jig for stropping, my Veritas MkII or others like it would allow one to, "strop with a jig, too." Furthermore, because of the nature of leather (slightly soft), with a little pressure, jig stropping would have the same effect as freehand stropping.

The difference between what I recommending an the Sharpmaker is where the convex occurs on the bevel. With the Sharpmaker, the convex is the bevel.

3 schools of thought here: Sharpness; Durability; Something in between. In my not so humble opinion, Lansky with a "freehand" strop does the best in providing both durability and sharpness - easily. Sharpmaker or any "crock stick" would fall more in the durability school, but still provide a relatively sharp edge. The difference would not be noticed by most. I DO like the Sharpmaker above other like systems because one can cutt rapidly on the edge or more finely on the flat. znode, you can paste out the first part of the last sentence, if you want.

I think everyone should learn to both freehand and use jigs. There are learning curves for both. If Stradivari lived today, I think he would use every bit of technology at his service to make his violins, old or new - point being - there's no shame in using jigs if they produce the edge you want. But I will say that there is a certain pride in freehanding a supersharp blade.

To kgd: I whole heartedly agree, especially about how quickly the Lansky silicone carbide stones dish. They can't be readily flattened and keep their cutting ability, either. The Arkansas Stones can, however.

My lansky is so old that it didn't come with a red handle, just a ribbed aluminum knob.

cinteal

 

[cinteal]

Foxhole, nobody who knows me would say I suffer from reading comprehension

Many would say that I'm an arrogant ass, though. Not that you need more to agree, but you're wrong on the convex thing. Sharpmaker does produce a convex. I'm not saying Lansky or any other jig produces a perfect bevel, but it's much closer to flat than at least I can produce on my Sharpmaker - and I'm damn good freehand sharpening on any system. I just choose to use the Lansky ON MY POCKETKNIFE ONLY because of the "flatter" bevel. Everything else is freehand on waterstones and strop.

As far as the steel goes, I think I remember sharpening my kitchen knives once. I used my old Arkansas benchstones. I bought them from the same place in Hot Springs - where the main mining of novaculite occurs in the whole country. At that time I also bought "crotchsticks" from that shop. They may have been crock sticks - I dunno - my reading comprehension - but "crotchsticks" is how they were sold. No, they weren't made or packaged in Arkansas. Maybe only the really good ones are marketed as "crotch". Anyway, that sharpening was all that was needed on my kitchen knives as I don't cook. As far as steeling, yes, I am aware of its function.

I will say this, you Sharpmaker supporters are much more dedicated than I am to Lansky.

Now, to go tend my lashes received in this beating

cinteal

 

[znode]

However, the sharpest attainable edge is obtained from a flat bevel PRIOR to stropping. I am not saying that that edge will "outperform" a convex bevel. In several threads I have cautioned folks about using this bevel - it's not very durable. Megasharp! but deforms very rapidly.

There is no reason for a correctly formed edge, convex or flat, to deteriorate very rapidly. If you are using light forces on the edge, the bevel should have enough metal to support its edge. If you are impacting the edge, it wouldn't matter whether or not you stropped it - it'll dent and chip anyway.

And how are you doing the sharpness comparison without measuring its performance? What evidence do you have exactly of flat bevels being sharp? Does it cut string with less force? Push-cuts paper with less force? Measurably smoother cuts in paper?

And what, exactly, are you comparing? There are a million things that can differ on knives finished on two completely different systems. The angle can be different. The abrasives can differ in quality and surface and warp. The attention and time you spend on two different sharpening runs are different. Your experience using two different sharpening systems are different. Are you honestly going to tell me that you managed to keep all of these factors the same, and know for sure it's the convexing of the bevel that's causing a difference in sharpness, and not any of those variations?

But it is sharper than an edge obtained from a Sharpmaker (convex bevel).

As has been repeatedly stated, the Sharpmaker doesn't make convex bevels. The variations are nearly negligible compared to every single other factor, such as bevel angle and polish. But I guess you're not going to listen.

Because a flat edge is not durable, we strop. Stropping puts a very slight convex to the very edge of the bevel. From multidirectional force, an arch is stronger than a triangle - simple physics.

You are talking about a microbevel, not a convex. And this "arch" is not stronger than a triangle, for the simple physics that the "arching" is 1/100 to 1/1000th the dimension of the triangle. If you make a triangle a foot tall, are you seriously going to tell me that "convexing" the tip of the triangle 1/64 of an inch is going to make a difference in its strength from "simple physics"?

(We also strop to remove a burr, but side sharpening on a 8000 - 16000 waterstone produces no burr).

How do you manage to use a 8000-16000 grit waterstone on a Lansky system? We are talking about the Lansky system here, aren't we? And there is nothing to indicate that you couldn't have left a microscopic burr in say, the 600-grit-ceramic/4000-grit-waterstone stage, that the 8000+ grit stone didn't smoothen out.

From your description, it seems very much likely that you probably left a microscopic burr on your "flat bevel" grinds, which made it "megasharp" but very weak. Stropping removed the microscopic burr, thus it seems stronger. Not all burrs can be felt, you know.