GEC 1095 seems harder to sharpen - or likes a toothier edge maybe?

Fred Sanford

Fred Sanford

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Sep 3, 2006
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Hey folks,

I just wondered, does anyone else have any issues sharpening GEC 1095? I'm used to sharpening 154CM, S30V, D2, Sandvik (Victorinox steel), and ESEE 1095. I have no problems with any of those. I freehand everything and can get shaving/hair popping edges on all of these steels.

I use DMT stones in Xtra Coarse, Coarse, and then Fine. After that I usually go to Spyderco ceramics and I only use the medium grit dark gray stones. What seems to be happening, in my experience is this: With all of the other steels mentioned above (including ESEE 1095) I can get a nice shaving sharp edge. With the GEC 1095, it seems like if I go any finer than the DMT Blue stone (300 mesh) it makes the blade less sharp. It seems like their 1095 likes a toothy edge better than a fine polished edge. Does this seem right? I only have experience sharpening my #85 Bullet End Jack as that's the only GEC I have right now.

I'm perfectly fine with folks telling me that it's just me. I'm guessing that it is just me, but I wanted to ask to see if anyone else has experience like this.

Thanks. :)
 
More than likely it IS NOT you, but rather the particular knife. Could be the H/T was off or something.
 
This seems like good food for the inhabitants of Maintenance and Tinkering.

 
And now that we are here, I will say, "Beats me, I stop at the Spyderco medium stones on all my knives, no matter what the alloy. For the the cutting chores I perform, it works better."
 
I only have one GEC (halfwhitt), but got the edge on both blades nice and polished with an Arkansas translucent.

One thing I noticed about mine when it arrived was some slight blueing at the tip of the pen blade. I haven't noticed any issues with ht, but I really don't use the pen that much.

I can't say what is going on with your knife, but I'd keep at it. Maybe try stropping on some high grit paper on a hard backing.
 
What angle is the edge at (factory edge, or thinner)?

I've seen some wide variation in 1095, depending (I assume) on heat treat issues. Not necessarily an issue of hardness (Rockwell), but maybe something affecting the finished grain size. As I understand it, the time taken to cool the steel after heat treat affects how much the grain grows; faster cooling (quench) limits the growth of the grain, and slower cooling allows the grain to grow to larger size. Larger grains impact how fine the finished edge can be. In terms of actual RC hardness, I don't think that's ever much of a factor in sharpening it, as abrasion-resistance isn't appreciably changed (1095's is pretty low to begin with, due to a complete absence of hard carbides in the steel).

Sometimes a generally thicker blade grind means having to grind away more metal, to thin the edge into better-cutting geometry. That can sometimes make it seem 'harder', in terms of the time and effort spent to sharpen it up.


David
 
If you are sharpening until you get a burr then it's probably not you. Get that burr on each edge, each stone and finish the last edge burr using only the weight of the knife. It should give you a very sharp edge. I finish up with strop loaded with green compound. This works for me on all blade steels.
 
Might also try different abrasives, instead of diamond, which can be overkill on simpler steels at times. Diamond's aggressiveness on 1095 can sometimes make it more difficult to get a clean edge, and also sometimes difficult to detect a burr when it forms (diamond can create a burr and scrub it off in the same pass). The character of a finished edge can vary greatly, depending on which abrasive was used to create and refine it.

I've noticed that silicon carbide works great with 1095, especially at the refining stages (400 grit and higher). Either a stone in SiC, or my favorite is SiC wet/dry sandpaper, followed by stropping with green compound. I sometimes will set a new bevel on a 1095 blade with a Fine diamond hone; after that, all refining gets done on the sandpaper and strop.


David
 
Thanks guys. I appreciate the help. Here is some additional info:

When I originally got the knife I actually took it right to my DMT Xtra Coarse because it wasn't sharp enough for me. I spent about an hour and 10 minutes just taking off steel to get it down to where I like it. Most of the time I find my free hand edges to be about 12 - 15 degrees per side. I do sharpen until I get a burr on each side as well. Then usually I make a pass on a piece of oak straight down dragging the blade perpendicular to the wood to remove the burr. Most of the time this works to remove the burr, sometimes it doesn't.

I do have a leather strop that I run green compound on but I've never stropped my GEC on it before. I did strop my ESEE 1095 on it I just figured that I didn't need to strop my GEC. Not sure why.....I just never really thought about it. I can get a satisfying hair popping edge without a strop so sometimes I don't use it. I mainly use a strop when/if I feel I just need to lightly touch up the edge of something like D2 or M4. I don't use it much on S30V or 154CM as it seems like the Spyderco ceramics do a good enough job (Spyderco grey as well as white ceramics).

I only have DMT and ceramics so I can't really test anything else. After I set the main bevel with the X-Coarse DMT I usually don't need to use it again unless the edge is really bad. I only use the Coarse and the Fine DMT's. 90% of the time I can get away with just using the Coarse stone for about 10 passes and then go right to the grey ceramic Spyderco stones.
 
I have not had an issue with GEC's 1095 (I have a half dozen or so). DMT fine, then arkansas hard, and a white compound strop to finish.
 
Re: stropping 1095...

This is one steel that really responds to stropping, as I see it. The low abrasion-resistance of the steel means a strop with black, white or green compound can change or enhance the character of the edge very quickly, especially if stropping on a firmer backing, like wood, or paper over wood. Stropping this way is a little more gentle than finishing on ceramics; really gives you more control when fine-tuning the finished edge. You might take your edge as it's finished from the blue or red DMT, and then strop it with some compound (skip the ceramics altogether). If there's a fairly heavy burr, black or white compound can clean that up very fast; then follow on green. If burrs are minimal, go straight to the green (or white). I've had good results with both of these, on 1095 and simpler stainless. And most recently, I've really liked using these compounds on a single thickness of paper over wood (plywood). REALLY CRISP edges this way.


David

David Lowry said:
Thanks guys. I appreciate the help. Here is some additional info:

When I originally got the knife I actually took it right to my DMT Xtra Coarse because it wasn't sharp enough for me. I spent about an hour and 10 minutes just taking off steel to get it down to where I like it. Most of the time I find my free hand edges to be about 12 - 15 degrees per side. I do sharpen until I get a burr on each side as well. Then usually I make a pass on a piece of oak straight down dragging the blade perpendicular to the wood to remove the burr. Most of the time this works to remove the burr, sometimes it doesn't.

I do have a leather strop that I run green compound on but I've never stropped my GEC on it before. I did strop my ESEE 1095 on it I just figured that I didn't need to strop my GEC. Not sure why.....I just never really thought about it. I can get a satisfying hair popping edge without a strop so sometimes I don't use it. I mainly use a strop when/if I feel I just need to lightly touch up the edge of something like D2 or M4. I don't use it much on S30V or 154CM as it seems like the Spyderco ceramics do a good enough job (Spyderco grey as well as white ceramics).

I only have DMT and ceramics so I can't really test anything else. After I set the main bevel with the X-Coarse DMT I usually don't need to use it again unless the edge is really bad. I only use the Coarse and the Fine DMT's. 90% of the time I can get away with just using the Coarse stone for about 10 passes and then go right to the grey ceramic Spyderco stones.
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When I get home tonight I'll run it on the DMT fine and then go to the ceramics and then strop it. I'll let you know what happens.

:)
 
Try making your sharpening angle slightly more acute. That seems to work for me quite often!
 
OK, so I came home and spent about 15 minutes on just the DMT fine stone and then went to the Spyderco medium ceramic and then stropped. It's kinda sharp, but nothing like it should be. I can't cleanly cut phone book paper. I CAN do that with all of my other knives. This dang GEC just wants to drag and snag on the pages.

So, I spent about 10 minutes on the DMT Coarse stone, until it could shave hair (sorta). Then I took it to the strop. Same thing.

With or without the strop, no matter if I finish on ceramic, or DMT fine, or DMT coarse this is the dullest knife that I have (when sharpened). It almost seems like the grain of the steel is huge and it takes a decent toothy edge but then when I go to sharpen it down to a more polished edge it just blunts the edge. I've never seen this before. I'm not a sharpening expert by any means but I feel like I can get everything else I own, along with friends knives sharp as heck. I just can't get this GEC #85 sharp. What's odd is that it seems like the small pen blade is fine. I can sharpen it up just fine.

For now, I'm just going to carry something else because this one frustrates me. :)
 
David Lowry said:
OK, so I came home and spent about 15 minutes on just the DMT fine stone and then went to the Spyderco medium ceramic and then stropped. It's kinda sharp, but nothing like it should be. I can't cleanly cut phone book paper. I CAN do that with all of my other knives. This dang GEC just wants to drag and snag on the pages.

So, I spent about 10 minutes on the DMT Coarse stone, until it could shave hair (sorta). Then I took it to the strop. Same thing.

With or without the strop, no matter if I finish on ceramic, or DMT fine, or DMT coarse this is the dullest knife that I have (when sharpened). It almost seems like the grain of the steel is huge and it takes a decent toothy edge but then when I go to sharpen it down to a more polished edge it just blunts the edge. I've never seen this before. I'm not a sharpening expert by any means but I feel like I can get everything else I own, along with friends knives sharp as heck. I just can't get this GEC #85 sharp. What's odd is that it seems like the small pen blade is fine. I can sharpen it up just fine.

For now, I'm just going to carry something else because this one frustrates me. :)
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The bolded parts above are suggesting to me that the steel may be more ductile and is forming and holding onto some tenacious burrs or wire edges. Rough burrs left by the diamond hone are folding over and creating the 'drag and snag' issues you're describing. I don't like ceramics for cleaning up edges like this, because the very hard & relatively fine ceramic seems to very easily fold ductile edges like this, and requires extremely light pressure and much patience to gently abrade them away. I have a 1095-bladed folder from a certain unnamed maker (not GEC) that has behaved similarly, and I've come to the conclusion that the steel is softer than it should be. For frame of reference, I compare it to my Schrade USA 8OT stockman, which apparently was hardened to near-60 RC (according to published Schrade catalog descriptions), and has minimal issues with burring (or cleaning them up), and holds a fine edge that's easily applied. I've gotten sort of spoiled with that knife; it's a joy to sharpen up and use.

If you're inclined to try something different with it, I'd still suggest using some mid/high-grit (maybe 400 and up) wet/dry sandpaper to basically 'strop' the edge (gently), and step up through the grits to clean up and refine the edge, after the diamond hone. Don't use the ceramic at all; I don't think it's helping you at this point.


David
 
That much trouble, and going by what you've said, I'm very suspicious of the HT.

If you are getting completely different results on the pen I'd consider talking to GEC. Hopefully, since I'm sure they'd ask you to send it in, that the person inspecting it knows what to look for.
 
David Lowry said:
OK, so I came home and spent about 15 minutes on just the DMT fine stone and then went to the Spyderco medium ceramic and then stropped. It's kinda sharp, but nothing like it should be. I can't cleanly cut phone book paper. I CAN do that with all of my other knives. This dang GEC just wants to drag and snag on the pages.

So, I spent about 10 minutes on the DMT Coarse stone, until it could shave hair (sorta). Then I took it to the strop. Same thing.

With or without the strop, no matter if I finish on ceramic, or DMT fine, or DMT coarse this is the dullest knife that I have (when sharpened). It almost seems like the grain of the steel is huge and it takes a decent toothy edge but then when I go to sharpen it down to a more polished edge it just blunts the edge. I've never seen this before. I'm not a sharpening expert by any means but I feel like I can get everything else I own, along with friends knives sharp as heck. I just can't get this GEC #85 sharp. What's odd is that it seems like the small pen blade is fine. I can sharpen it up just fine.

For now, I'm just going to carry something else because this one frustrates me. :)
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Hey David, same thing happened to me with 2 out 3 GEC, my first one was a #61 whittler. I was very frustated with the dang thing, the main blade was the only one I owned which I cannot get sharp...
Then I bought a #25 Easy open, huge reprofiling on arrival and more or less sharp, but in the second sharpening... same stuff sharp off the 25 micron DC4 or DMT fine, but when trying to refine the edge to a higher grit (ceramic) It kept becoming duller and duller.
Here I said, ok It has to be the abrassive so tried with waterstones and even worse, the edge didn't reflected light and sliced paper well but didn't feel sharp.
Then the 2012 forum knife arrived, and with a little touch up was scary sharp right away. :eek::eek:what???
In the end:
- As someone smarter said before: "Geometry cuts" the forum knife had a beautifully thin flat grind while the other two were thick behind the edge. You could say "sharp is sharp no matter the angle" and yes it is, but for me It was very difficult to maintain the proper angle and I think I was ending up rounding the apex, while trying to refine it, making it even worse with the strop.
- my advice is: put the side of the blade on the coarser stone you have(or sandpaper) and grind down quite a bit until it is almost zero grind, then refine to the grit or polish you like. Now try to sharpen again... HUGE diference. for me any way.
The #25 is now one of my favorite knives and the #61 is my dedicated carver.
I don't know if it makes sense but I was very confused after 14-15 years sharpening all kinds of steel, and hearing good things about 1095. And was purely a question of geometry.
mateo
-
 
Will add this to the discussion - I've noticed a big difference between some 1095 steel in terms of edge retention and perceived RC (I have no testing equipment, just basing this on how they feel on the stones). The softer 1095 will still take a fine edge but as David has mentioned, seems to really like a hard strop to finish. Have also gotten good results with King waterstones up to 6k, an Arkansas would likely do the best job on these. It will not hold that fine edge for long, and seem to do better with a rougher finish. Am classifying my TOPS 1095 and Old Hickory knives in this range - they grind very fast on anything and are probably HT more for toughness than edge holding. My Moras, reportedly close to 60RC, take and hold a fine edge a lot better, are a bit slower to grind, and can be worked on a wider variety of abrasives. Have several other carbon steel knives that may or may not be 1095, and a few 1095 CV that have a feel much closer to the Mora, so tough to draw too many comparisons. Grain size might be an additional factor, RC definitely seems to be a biggie.
 
I realize this is pretty hard nosed but I'm not going to buy additional sharpening stuff just for this particular knife. I'm too frustrated after spending all that time, especially since I can get anything else I have super duper hair popping sharp.

It will be getting rid of this knife with a disclaimer. I'm just not in the mood to deal with sending it back to GEC and having them possibly tell me that it's perfectly fine. Someone else can do that if they want.

I just feel like I'm going to end up sharpening the blade down to a nub just trying to get it right.

I do really appreciate all of the replies and willingness to help. Thanks! :)
 
Hi David,

I use nearly the exact same sharpening system myself. DMT Diafold with the angle guide system. I've sharpened three GEC knives with this system with the same blade steel. I've been able to achieve very fine edges on all three knives. I would agree with others that you might have a heat treat issue with that specific blade. I wonder if you sent it in if they would be able to somehow test that blade? Best of luck.

Keith
 
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