Geographic location have alot to do with older traditional knives surviving?

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

I got myself to thinking and asking myself this question... I mean, everything being equal, care, or lack of... a knife living it's life in a humid environment vs. one living in a dry environment... well, I would expect a difference in it's long term preservation. As an example, a good friend of mine living in Arizona in an area where high temperatures and dry air are the norm, recently drove up to my area in Syracuse NY with an old truck. I mean old, as in only about 15 years old, but by Syracuse NY standards, that would have become a rust bucket, even with decent care. But, living where he does... not one lick of rust anywhere, the truck looking like it was a couple of years old! On the other hand, he explained how the high temperatures and low humidity causes many rubber seals around the automobile's glass and door seals to dry out and crack prematurely. So, a knife that was used or collected by someones grandad, and then put away in the basement or attic after he passes, it's survival would likely be much better in one area of the world over another. With traditional knives often having carbon steel blades, liners, pins... having natural bone, wood, or even having temperature sensitive synthetic materials... well, location of storage and location of it's handling can make a huge difference, imo. Too hot, too dry... maybe the steel benefits... but maybe not the handle scales (maybe causing cracking). Then there is the extreme other side... too humid, and maybe rust and other issues happen. Obviously in museums, climate control keeps everything in the best overall zone (humidity, lighting, and temperature). So, I wonder if some parts of the world, there are more knife survivors of the past being stored in basements, attics, outdoor sheds, and such... more survivors in areas where the climate helps them stay alive and well, rather than to die from their climate? Why do I ask myself such questions?...For no real reason... just because I think too much. I do believe a better climate for knives, may make for better old traditional knife finds. Maybe time for me to head to the gym for my workout! LOL!

 

[Codger_64]

To an extent I am sure this is true. Of course there are many other factors influencing survival rates as well. Quantities produced for one. And the location in which they were sold/owned/used as well as in a knife sold in a farming community might be likely to see harder use, even generational use than the same knife sold to an inner city businessman who may put it into a drawer and seldom take it out, to later be found by decendents cleaning out the man's posessions for an estate sale. The same knife bought by a farmer may see nearly daily carry and use, years of sharpening and exposure to elements.

 

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

To an extent I am sure this is true. Of course there are many other factors influencing survival rates as well. Quantities produced for one. And the location in which they were sold/owned/used as well as in a knife sold in a farming community might be likely to see harder use, even generational use than the same knife sold to an inner city businessman who may put it into a drawer and seldom take it out, to later be found by decendents cleaning out the man's posessions for an estate sale. The same knife bought by a farmer may see nearly daily carry and use, years of sharpening and exposure to elements.

Yes, sir... definitely other factors come into play... good points

 

[davek14]

Interesting. I'm sure climate would affect any metal surviving.

I could be wrong but, AFAICR, I read somewhere, (all disclaimers apply) that the area I live in (the Cincinnati area) had a tighter market for older knives at yard sales and such. Like, as in people wanted more money for them or saw their value more.

So would that make more or less survive? Would "culture" and geographic location be a factor?

Just to complicate the issue.

edit: Codger kinda beat me to it

 

[arizonaranchman]

You're right. Humidity will be brutal to steel but probably preserve scale materials better.

Here in the desert southwest we sometimes have humidity as low as 5-10%. Rarely over 40%. So cars n trucks 40-50 years old have NO RUST. I have a 1929 Model A that had almost no rust holes in the body when I sand blasted it inside and out. Just pitting and a very few minor holes where dirt had collected and held moisture in a few spots. In old cars they wear out mechanically, but the bodies last for decades.

My knives when new and prior to a patina forming, get some pepper spotting in my pockets in summer if i'm outdoors and perspiring, but nothing bad. I give them a wipe down with mineral oil when necessary but I don't go to any great efforts. After each use the blade gets a quick wipe on my t-shirt or jeans before I close it. I never have gotten actual red rust, just dark spots that pepper the steel on a new blade.

 

[Codger_64]

Interesting. I'm sure climate would affect any metal surviving.

I could be wrong but, AFAICR, I read somewhere, (all disclaimers apply) that the area I live in (the Cincinnati area) had a tighter market for older knives at yard sales and such. Like, as in people wanted more money for them or saw their value more.

So would that make more or less survive? Would "culture" and geographic location be a factor?

Just to complicate the issue.

edit: Codger kinda beat me to it

I can see where in some areas, culturally, old knives are thought of as just that, old knives. Little different than old pots and pans. Few people want them so when they are found, they go at near give-away prices after languishing on tables and in bins giving the impression of high survival rates. And in areas with higher collector/user populations, they dissapear quickly into pockets and drawers when they do become available leaving the impression that few survive when in reality, more do than one might think.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

You're right. Humidity will be brutal to steel but probably preserve scale materials better.

Here in the desert southwest we sometimes have humidity as low as 5-10%. Rarely over 40%. So cars n trucks 40-50 years old have NO RUST. I have a 1929 Model A that had almost no rust holes in the body when I sand blasted it inside and out. Just pitting and a very few minor holes where dirt had collected and held moisture in a few spots. In old cars they wear out mechanically, but the bodies last for decades.

My knives when new and prior to a patina forming, get some pepper spotting in my pockets in summer if i'm outdoors and perspiring, but nothing bad. I give them a wipe down with mineral oil when necessary but I don't go to any great efforts. After each use the blade gets a quick wipe on my t-shirt or jeans before I close it. I never have gotten actual red rust, just dark spots that pepper the steel on a new blade.

This mirrors exactly what I've seen here in NM. Very, very low humidity in the early summer, sometimes down to 3-4%; our so-called 'monsoon season' comes in August, with afternoon humidity levels usually up to 40-50%. That's the only time I've had issues with spotting on blades, and it's still pretty minor. With cars, a lot of rusting issues happen not only due to humidity or moisture/precipitation, but also whether a given geographical area is accustomed to salting the roads in the winter. I found this out the hard way, after spending about 6-7 months in the Chicago area in the winter, when I was in the Navy (at Great Lakes NTC). Really took a toll on the undercarriage/exhaust system of my car. Other areas near the coasts will have similar issues created by the salty sea air (saw a lot of this in San Diego).

I even managed to get a Victorinox SAK to rust pretty bad, when living in central Texas. Daily humidity levels above 60% almost year-round, and usually at/near 100% at nighttime. I'd left the knife in a toolbox in the (hard-shelled) covered back of my pickup for a couple/three years, forgetting it was even there. When I finally stumbled across it again, the humid air had taken it's toll (blades stuck shut by rust), though it was never directly exposed to rain or other precipitation.


David

 

[T. Erdelyi]

Here in NEPA being within driving distance of Shade, Queen,Camillus, Case and asked the other now defunct eastern knife companies the odds of finding better quality knives from years ago is better I think than in most places, everybody carried a pocket knife here and because a larger number were made here, more survive hidden in drawers took boxes and basements.

Now they are becoming more scarce but every time I go out looking I always find something old and in reasonable to great shape, I think because of that and being a little picky, I usually do pretty good for myself.

What geography gives me, environment takes away so I guess in the long run it balances it's self out. I think you find more knives here it's just how well they were kept and where they were kept that grossly affects condition.

 

[arizonaranchman]

This mirrors exactly what I've seen here in NM. Very, very low humidity in the early summer, sometimes down to 3-4%; our so-called 'monsoon season' comes in August, with afternoon humidity levels usually up to 40-50%. That's the only time I've had issues with spotting on blades, and it's still pretty minor. With cars, a lot of rusting issues happen not only due to humidity or moisture/precipitation, but also whether a given geographical area is accustomed to salting the roads in the winter. I found this out the hard way, after spending about 6-7 months in the Chicago area in the winter, when I was in the Navy (at Great Lakes NTC). Really took a toll on the undercarriage/exhaust system of my car. Other areas near the coasts will have similar issues created by the salty sea air (saw a lot of this in San Diego).

I even managed to get a Victorinox SAK to rust pretty bad, when living in central Texas. Daily humidity levels above 60% almost year-round, and usually at/near 100% at nighttime. I'd left the knife in a toolbox in the (hard-shelled) covered back of my pickup for a couple/three years, forgetting it was even there. When I finally stumbled across it again, the humid air had taken it's toll (blades stuck shut by rust), though it was never directly exposed to rain or other precipitation.


David

Funny you say this. I lived just south of Chicago til I was 20 (1963-'84) and that salt on the roads is BRUTAL! I remember cars just 6-8 yrs old having fist-sized rust holes in their lower door panels, quarter panels, etc. Crazy! And now I've lived in San Diego for 30 years. If you live within say 2 miles of the beach the salt air will reek havoc on your car, etc. Otherwise the weather here in the southwest preserves cars to an amazing degree.

As far as my knives it's the salt in perspiration (in my RFP carry) during hot summer days that effects the 1095 steel the most. It creates dark pepper spots where exposed to perspiration in my pocket (to the spine area primarily). By now over time these pepper spots have converged to the point where the spine of the blade and the back spring are sort of an even dark gray.

 

[Will Power]

Here in Scandinavia, the real problem is dry hot air indoors during the long winter. It can really cause shrink on handles, ivory is a nightmare, horn bad too, stag doesn't like it and bone&wood can get shrunk. It tends to move back once moisture levels go up in spring/summer, but I have a humidifier to help increase moisture (It's also easier to breathe!) I even contemplated getting a humidor for certain knives.

Another aspect is type of building. Contemporary housing blocks are made of concrete and prefabricated materials, this draws all the moisture out of the air making it very dry. So, my knives in town have a hard time compared to those in the old wooden house in the country, this 'breathes' more and has much more friendly conditions for knives. Some of the horn handles go there for this reason.

Also, I think that knives stored unused for long periods are bound to get messed up sooner or later unless specialist conditions are employed. Regular handling and light use is beneficial-sounds like exercise! Brass liners don't fare as well as nickel-silver or iron in my experience. Brass bleed/verdigris can set off nasty corrosion with the steel and it can stain stag pretty badly. Brass of course tarnishes quickly in moist conditions, just think what brass and Cell can do together in the 'right' conditions...major catastrophe

 

[arizonaranchman]

Here in Scandinavia, the real problem is dry hot air indoors during the long winter. It can really cause shrink on handles, ivory is a nightmare, horn bad too, stag doesn't like it and bone&wood can get shrunk. It tends to move back once moisture levels go up in spring/summer, but I have a humidifier to help increase moisture (It's also easier to breathe!) I even contemplated getting a humidor for certain knives.

Another aspect is type of building. Contemporary housing blocks are made of concrete and prefabricated materials, this draws all the moisture out of the air making it very dry. So, my knives in town have a hard time compared to those in the old wooden house in the country, this 'breathes' more and has much more friendly conditions for knives. Some of the horn handles go there for this reason.

Hmmm, an interesting thought... Living here in the desert it's definitely dry. Is Mineral Oil a good way to help bone handles and prevent shrinking? What about Elephant Ivory? Mineral oil for that also?

 

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

Interesting how many variables in our environments we all have... thanks for sharing, guys

 

[arizonaranchman]

Interesting how many variables in our environments we all have... thanks for sharing, guys

True, I can only imagine those who live in wet/humid climates like coastal Washington state, Florida, etc. Or fishermen who work on the oceans with the chronic salty air.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Funny you say this. I lived just south of Chicago til I was 20 (1963-'84) and that salt on the roads is BRUTAL! I remember cars just 6-8 yrs old having fist-sized rust holes in their lower door panels, quarter panels, etc. Crazy! And now I've lived in San Diego for 30 years. If you live within say 2 miles of the beach the salt air will reek havoc on your car, etc. Otherwise the weather here in the southwest preserves cars to an amazing degree. (...)

I actually spent two ~6-month schooling stints at Great Lakes (North Chicago, just bordering Waukegan, IL), in winter of '81-'82, and again around '83-'84. Looks like we were both in the area at the same time.

Know exactly what you mean about the salty areas close to the water, versus the dryer areas just slightly inland, in San Diego. I remember visiting the areas near the beach, and was taken aback at all the rusty vehicles and other corroded structures near the water. The area's pretty neat, geographically and meteorologicaly, with prevailing warm & dry breezes coming from inland desert to the east during the day, and then they 'turn around', cooling and coming in off the water from the west at night, usually bringing fog. I had a vehicle while stationed in San Diego, but apparently was just far enough inland to avoid a lot of the rust issues.


David

 

[Campbellclanman]

Here where I am in East Auckland, we have very high Humidity, it can be around 80% quite easily, so with my knives that I keep hidden away, I must be extremely vigilant as if you leave them too long it could be disastrous!

 

[Kadmos]

I'm here in St.Louis Missouri, we have hot humid summers and cold humid winters, with occasional dry spells.

Everything rusts. The good news rust will generally form quickly enough that it's just flash surface rust. A bit of WD 40 and fine steel wool will knock off the rust but leave the patina. Even stainless can pick up a rust pretty quick here.

Sometimes after decades you can get some real bad pitting, but most of the time the rust just looks worse than it is.

For handles, wood and bone seem to do real well here, as does stag. Celluloid and Delrin can be real problems. If they get used they tend to stay ok, and if they are kept inside out of the sun they do ok, but leave one out and it will shrink or badly discolor.

I picked up a Buck 300 series at an antique shop for a buck or two, it was interesting because it was bright baby blue, I didn't think they made them in that color. Decided to buff some crud off the handles, and what do you know, it's black like all the others. My guess is it sat on someone's dashboard for a bit or something.

I see knives at the flea market all the time with no handles left, most probably had delrin on them.

I think it really does affect the ability to find them, I'm guessing most of the old ones were rediscovered, probably by the owner, rusted, and got tossed in the trash with no attempt to clean them up.

Occasionally I find decent ones at the flea market, usually newer, either that or they are just packed in a bin with other rusty items. I never here anyone say "Yeah I cleaned it up" although I do here them say "It'll probably clean up nice".

I guess it's laziness, or maybe they don't want to risk cleaning it enough to find out the steel is in really bad shape, I don't know.

But I do think it is a big determination as to what percent hit the trashcan rather than the flea market.