Gerber Backpax vs. Gransfor Bruks???

[azranger]

I posted this wrongly on general knife discussion--oops. My question is I have a good knife, do I really need a hatchet for chopping. The knife I am getting is a Becker CU7.
I read that Gransfor is highly recommended, but is it that much better than the Gerber?? If so, why? Thanks for your help.

 

[Way-O]

I'd think a 7" quality knife can handle any light chopping. If you're going to do extensive/hard chopping or splitting, a hatchet might be a good tool to have.

If you're worried about the price, get the Gerber. The main difference between the Gransfors and the Gerber is the profile. Gerber axes are much thicker behind the edge than hand made axes. They may not be so well suited for delicate tasks. But if you're carrying a knife as well, that's really not a problem. They split firewood very well. I would not worry about the quality of the steel. It's there. And the coating, of which significance is arguable, is very tough. I guess the secondary grind (at least) could be reprofiled, but this would be laborous. I'm not sure if there would be significant benefits.

The Back Paxe is very light (under half a kilo) and the belt sheath is very solid. And you'll never have to replace the handle. I have to believe they are indestructable. I saw the Gerber/Fiskars axes endure long term hard use in the FDF. The handle also allows a comfortable high 'choke' grip, if you need to whittle something or make kindlings. I've found some traditional wooden handles to be very uncomfortable when holding them close to the axe head.

The handle is very short though, and I have seen the larger Camp Axe sold with the same belt sheath. The heads are the same size, and the larger model is only marginally heavier. If the length is an issue, but you'd still like some leverage once in a while, I suppose you also could fashion a wooden pole and stick it inside the hollow handle and secure it through the lanyard holes.

I'd also suggest checking if Hultafors axes are sold where you live. These are hand made and seem to be of high quality. Around here they are sold for about the same as the Gerber/Fiskars axes.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Other than color, "Gerber" axes are the same as those sold in the US under the "Fiskars" brand -- only the Fiskars brand generally come at a lower price.

 

[North61]

IMO The Granfors Bruks feel like a real axe. Even the little mini feels great in the hand, is well balanced, sharper than hell and a joy to use. You have in your hand an evolved design with hundreds of years of historical/cultural influence.

The Gerber is a design with no history and no soul...if you ever have a chance to pick both of them up and handle them I am pretty confident you would fall in love with the Granfors and put the Gerber back on the shelf,(where it belongs).

 

[Temper]

Other than color, "Gerber" axes are the same as those sold in the US under the "Fiskars" brand -- only the Fiskars brand generally come at a lower price.

The only difference I have seen is that the Gator stuff is made in Taiwan and the Gerber Paxe/Axe ones in Finland

I agree though that the GB is in a class all of its own, the closest thing, if you dont mind a rougher looking finish is the Wetterling #13 or #16. they are much cheaper than the GB and perform near as damn from all accounts.

 

[Thomas Linton]

The only difference I have seen is that the Gator stuff is made in Taiwan and the Gerber Paxe/Axe ones in Finland

I agree though that the GB is in a class all of its own, the closest thing, if you dont mind a rougher looking finish is the Wetterling #13 or #16. they are much cheaper than the GB and perform near as damn from all accounts.

"Gator" ???

I have two axes. They are identical except for the color of the plastic (one all black; one black and orange).

One says "Gerber." One says "Fiskars"

Both say "Made in Finland."

Fiskars owns the "Gerber" brand.

 

[Temper]

Gerber makes a cheaper line of axes with the Gator grip. The Paxe and Gerber Axe's are made in Finland. The Gerber Gator axes are made in Taiwan. That is the only difference I can see between them other than the non-slip Gator handle which is the same as the one on the Gator Saw. There is a Gerber Gator model which is essentially the same as the Paxe. Dealer prices have them about $1-3 cheaper than the Finland made ones. One of the Gator models has a knife that fits into the hollow handle too. As its a Gerber knife the quality isnt going to be all that great but for shaving up some tinder/kindling it should be fine.

Paxe

Gerber Gator with knife (Paxe size)

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Gerber axes are much thicker behind the edge than hand made axes. They may not be so well suited for delicate tasks. But if you're carrying a knife as well, that's really not a problem.

While the knife can do most carving and cutting well, you need a fine edge for wood chopping. While you can split with anything, the knife will do that well with a baton. The axe edge should be thin and acute enough to get good penetration while bucking thick woods and limbing. The GB wildlife hatchet will clear small-medium thick woods 3:1 times faster than the CU/7, largely due to its fine edge.

-Cliff

 

[Way-O]

Gerber makes a cheaper line of axes with the Gator grip. The Paxe and Gerber Axe's are made in Finland. The Gerber Gator axes are made in Taiwan. That is the only difference I can see between them other than the non-slip Gator handle which is the same as the one on the Gator Saw.

From that pair of pictures you posted, the grinds actually look different. Hard to tell what's the actual difference without a top view of the bits side by side.

I wouldn't really go for the axe-knife combo if it costs more than the plain axe, since the knife seems to be made from 420 and I don't see a need for the rubberized handle. The knife won't be needed anyway if one has a Becker or would have just a cheap Mora. The larger model with the saw stashed inside might be something to look into if a saw was deemed a necessity, which it probably wont when carrying an axe and a knife.

While the knife can do most carving and cutting well, you need a fine edge for wood chopping. While you can split with anything, the knife will do that well with a baton. The axe edge should be thin and acute enough to get good penetration while bucking thick woods and limbing. The GB wildlife hatchet will clear small-medium thick woods 3:1 times faster than the CU/7, largely due to its fine edge.

-Cliff

Well allright, won't argue on that.

These are not felling axes though, and while the penetration wont be high, the importance on very deep penetration can be discussed a little. For the kind of trees that might be needed to cut down in a camping situation, or limbing, I'm sure they'll suffice. There are worse examples as well.

Splitting abilities are good, and the light weight along with the overall construction are things to take into account. Things happen, and a novice might not find it amusing to have to fashion a replacement handle in the wilderness. The nylon belt sheath is really rigid, and though I don't know what kind of carry option is supplied with the Gransfors, I consider this a big plus. Gerbers are surprisingly controllable (ref. to the mid sized ones at least). I also would not be afraid to use the them as hammers, which is often not recommended with axes, hand made maybe even more especially.

The Gransfors and some other handforged brands are surely superior tools, but there are always other factors to consider beside the bit mechanics, price being of course one obvious one.

Neither one of these would be my first choice, but I have some experience with the Fiskars/Gerber axes and it's mostly positive (Routinely making fire pits and providing firewood for large tents and cooking equipment, making kindlings). They are workable tools off the shelf, with fine steel and good weather resistance. If one would be buying an axe from this lineup, I'd suggest the partly orange painted Fiskars ones for better spotting if dropped or forgotten outside, if available.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

For the kind of trees that might be needed to cut down in a camping situation, or limbing, I'm sure they'll suffice.

You can cut down any tree with any axe, it is just a matter of time and effort. As well a more efficient axe pattern is inherently a safer one. If price is a concern, wetterling is a lot cheaper than GB with similar performance. GB doesn't simply have a better bit pattern, it also has an excellent steel and grip.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

While the knife can do most carving and cutting well, you need a fine edge for wood chopping. While you can split with anything, the knife will do that well with a baton. The axe edge should be thin and acute enough to get good penetration while bucking thick woods and limbing.

My opinion and perspective differs from Cliff here. I think knife work is much more edge sensitive than axe work. Changing the edge angle and finish on a knife can increase cutting perfromance, especially slicing by 4-5 times easily. See the work done by Joe Talmadge on the Benchmade 710 in the late 90’s for example. Cliff has pointed this out many times over as well.

In contrast, giving an axe a finer edge will not improve the results by nearly that degree. Before I discovered the joy of GB axes, I used my share of thick edged axes. They still chopped wood. Even a dull axe will chop wood, even if you are smashing the fibers more than cutting them. Why, because you are getting a lot of energy from the mass and head speed so that edge acuity is not as critical.

Yes, it is nice to use a well made axe like the GB line. But it is not like going from a thick edged axe to a thin one is going to make me chop wood like Jason Wynard or David Bolstad, which would comparable to the multiple increase you would see from changing a knife edge.

On some type of knife work, having an acute sharp edge is is all that matters, cutting light line, thin leather, meat, etc. Other types of tools, like machetes are edge sensitive, but not to the degree a knife is.

The GB wildlife hatchet will clear small-medium thick woods 3:1 times faster than the CU/7, largely due to its fine edge.

I agree the Hatchet is more efficient here, but disagree as to the cause. Having used both, I think the Hatchet is much more efficient (the 3X sounds about right) almost soley due to the weight and balance distribution. The hatchet is **MUCH** more forward balanced and gives greater elverage and head speed than the neuteral balanced BK7. You could make the edge on the BK7 severely acute and it would not match the performance of the Hatchet, because that is not the cause of the perfromance differential in the two tools. It is mainly about balance and leverage.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I think the Hatchet is much more efficient (the 3X sounds about right) almost soley due to the weight and balance distribution.

This is what gives it the power and the bit profile determines the efficiency, controlling how much of the energy goes into cutting the wood and how much in distorting it to allow the head to pass.

It is trivial to pick up a cheap hatchet which has only a fraction of the cutting ability of the GB one due to the difference in the bit profile. It is just as important on an axe to get the right profile as it is on a blade.

I have seen large felling axes, five pound heads, outchopped by the GB Wildlife Hatchet. The edge was just insanely thick, and had no relief grind.All kinds of power, no efficiency.

-Cliff

 

[Way-O]

Here's a recent post (#11) with some input on the smallest Fiskars hatchet (basically the Backpaxe). Apparently he has used it a lot, and speaks favourably of it.

It'd be interesting to see a straight comparison between a Fiskars hatchet (either the smallest or the longer handled one) and a Wetterling hatchet, since they seem to be in the same price class. I don't think Hultafors axes are that widely available, their hatchet would be exactly the same price. Or at least here they are, but I've observed the prices of these sort of products don't vary much. They too are hand forged and might be more nicely finished than the Wetterlings.