Get A Custom, Say "No" To Art???

Megalobyte

Megalobyte

Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
2,761
OK. Like a lot of people, most of the handmade knives i own are not true customs, because i bought them already made, from websites such as Knife-Art and the like, or at shows from makers. So, yes, i know, these are merely handmade knives, not true customs, since they werent made to my specifications. Here is what i wonder.

Isnt there something to be said for letting the maker make the knife according to his own vision, isnt it likely his artistic vision for a knife is probably better than mine? Isnt it probable that if the knife is envisioned and designed by me, that it may not be as nice a knife as it would have been if the maker wasnt constrained by my design? After all, you wouldnt tell Picasso exactly what to paint, what colors to use, if you did, it wouldnt really be a picasso, in my case, it would be an "Ari", and probably not nearly as aesthetic as what the maker would have created if left alone with his own vision.

I see so many hand made knives that i think are truly perfect creations, in my wildest dreams i couldnt have designed it better and thus, the finished knife is better for not having my specifications thrust upon it.

I bought a Corbit dagger recently, i look at the knife and marvel at how perfect it is and there is not one single thing i would want to change, which means had i been the one to design it, it probably would not look as good as it does having been designed by Jerry himself, after all, isnt his expertise in what makes a knife look good superior to mine, im not a knife maker or designer. He knows better than i what looks good and what works.

So, what do you guys think, is there something to be said for these handmade knives that while not being customs in the true sense of the word, are better reflections of the particular style and artistic vision of the artist who designed and made them? If i tell Jerry Corbit what to make, isnt it no longer a Corbit, and hasnt something important been lost?
 
I feel exactly that way. For me there are:
- custom knives: unique pieces made on specs;
- art knives: unique pieces made 100% (including design) by the artist;
- handmade knives: knives that follow a given model, such as the Loveless drop point hunter with green canvas micarta, etc.

The interesting thing is that mistaking makers for what they're not will get you into trouble with some. They'll get very antsy if you start dictating what you want exactly. Plus, as you mentioned, the knife will become partly your creation, which is the lost opportunity of seeing a master's work.

JD
 
It all depends. I mean, if it's a special design that you need to do a certain job, then I can understand if you give input.

But, if it's a piece that is not going to be used, in a collection only,(AN INVESTMENT PIECE) then yes I would let the maker (ARTIST) design it.

When I order a piece, I simply say, Put me down for a (THE) piece YOU want to make, and what YOU want me to have. Sometimes, I will say in a certain price range, but THAT IS ALL!

PLEASE remember this, if you are buying from a maker (ARTIST) that you can't trust this way, LEAVE THEM ALONE. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!

Just my thoughts. Please take them with a grain of salt.

Darby
 
Some excellent thoughts and advice by all three of you as far as I am concerned. Over the years I have forgotten about trying to categorize the knives in my collection. As Darby alluded, it is a good thing to develop trust and knowledge with and about a maker.

On a knife I am going to use I usually tell the maker what I am going to use it for, on a fancier knife most of the time all I ask for is for the maker to have fun with something they want to do. I might go as far as asking for a bowie, dagger, folder etc and a loose style, but that is about it. I chose the maker partly for their style so I best stick to suggestions that encompass that style.

In either case I might offer my favorite materials with the "warning" to use them if that is what you want to do and fits in with your ideas, but it is perfectly fine if you want to use something else. In every case the result was more than I expected and a friendship to one degree or another has developed. That is a pretty good combination.

My favorite knives are the ones made by those friends. There is something special that goes on when I pull out a knife that a friend made while they were thinking about you. (Now that may not be a good thing all of the time. I just took delivery of a Doctor's knife. This was the first of the pattern that this friend made and I know it took at least 2 good trys to make it. So he may have been cussing me part of the time :D.)

They may have called me to get an opinion on an idea they had. They may call me to tease me on an idea they had not telling me what it is so that I see it when it is delivered. They may call with an idea that they had while they were working on it. They may call and not talk about the knife at all. It all turns out good.
 
I have no problem with buying a predesigned handmade knife. I know exactly what I'm getting this way, so I know what to expect in terms of aesthetics and functionality. There are also times when I love a makers designs, but really need or want something slightly different. I make overly sure that the maker is comfortable with the change. If not, I’m happy to go to another maker. No hard feelings. I respect the maker’s decision.

But I’m a picky person at heart. I can’t think of a single maker, whose designs I ALL love. Many designs just aren’t to my particular tastes. I’d NEVER order a knife in a certain price range, and allow complete freedom of the maker to do as he wishes. It would, no doubt, give the maker amazing satisfaction, but that’s not the point of the purchase. If the knife were a gift to me, it might be different. If I’m paying for a knife, I want it to be very close to what I have in mind.
 
Just to be clear: what I said wasn't meant to be an advice. It's just that those three approaches all exist in the handmade knife world, and they're all (inaccurately) described as "custom."

JD
 
I enjoy putting my knife ideas on paper then refining them over & over. Adding this; adding that; removing this. Then when I'm satisfied, I contact a knifemaker asking if he'd be interested in taking a look at my idea. I ask for his criticism, knowledgeable input (he is the expert) & between us we come up with a further refined 'custom' idea! Hey! Two heads are better than one, right! As far as I'm concerned, he has modified my drawing for the better & I believe he will 'relish' making this knife because a part of him is going into this project. I may 'stand pat' on a handle material or the shape of the knife & I haven't been disappointed yet! If I knew how to quote someone's post I'd insert Gus Kalanzis' 3rd paragraph here - that is exactly how I feel!

Now there's an idea for a new thread I'd like to see: show a picture of the original drawing vs the final custom knife!
 
There is a tradition of artists working out commissions with patrons... Most of the great Masters in painting / sculpture had to deal with this... i.e. '...make my nose smaller,' '...don't paint the private bits,' and that kind of thing.

I have had customers who wanted to work out details with me and customers who said '...go for it'. Only once have I thrown in the towel and given a super-ultra-picky and impossible-to-satisfy customer their money back.

There can be something nice about a customer establishing boundaries and there can be something daunting about complete autonomy... and visa versa. For me, at least, they are both fun ways to make a living.
 
Originally posted by Clydetz

Now there's an idea for a new thread I'd like to see: show a picture of the original drawing vs the final custom knife!
Click to expand...

I've had three threads like that, for three out of the four knives I've had made to my designs. Of course those pics are all gone since Photopoint went out of business. :(

I think it's one of the great pleasures of being a Knifenut and to have a knife made to your own design. That was the purpose of the threads I started to encourage people to try it and get exactly the knife you want made. Not every Custon Kniffe Maker will make Custom Knives, and I have nothing against buying a standard model or buying off the table. For me there's no wrong way to buy a knife, except on credit. ;)
 
Come now Phil, you cant be serious, credit is the BEST way to buy a knife! :) I try to stay at least one knife beyond my budget. :D
 
PhilL -

I've seen some of your ideas put to paper - they look like 'real' knives. My designs look like 'stick' knives ready to be 'fleshed out'! I agree, it's a great pleasure to see your idea turned into reality by a friendly craftsman. I definitely don't have the talent to do it myself. I wasn't always a knife knut but had an idea bouncing around in my head since I was a teenager. Thankfully, I contacted a knifemaker that was more than willing to tackle my idea & make my 'Beast' as he called it! Now I can't stop putting my ideas on paper & seeing if it can be made. For these projects, I don't rely on credit!:D
I have no problem with buying production knives or a knifemaker's finished product either. If I see something I like & can afford it I can be real happy, also.
I'll have to see if I can get some pixs of knife drawings & the finished product & start a thread. You'll have to let me know what you think? I know you had the tutorial going for awhile about drawing knives using Adobe, I believe. I hope it's still around; I have been meaning to pick up the software.
 
I like to have a little input on the knife that I am going to get. There is only one time that I completely designed a knife myself and that knife has yet to be built. I chose a local maker that wasn't going to charge me too much to make this knife. If it turns out to be less than I had hoped then the exercise will not have cost me that much.

It is my belief that once I have given the maker an idea of the design I want and the materials that I would like used that I should get out the way and let the maker do what he/she does best.

I do like to work directly with the maker though. To this point I have never bought a custom knife from a dealer or a purveyor. Part of the enjoyment of getting a custom knife is the interaction with the maker, and I wouldn't miss that for the world.
 
Originally posted by Clydetz
I know you had the tutorial going for awhile about drawing knives using Adobe, I believe. I hope it's still around; I have been meaning to pick up the software.
Click to expand...

The tutorial is still around, but dropping off into the sunset on Shop Talk.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=212549

I think if you have the program and try the tutorial you can play around and design any knife you can imagine. It's fun even if you have no plans to actualy have the knife made.
 
Custom is not necessarily better than handmade. There are times when I'm glad to buy a knife from a maker's table. That's the only way I can really know if it has that perfect look and feel. In designing something new, you're always taking a chance. On the other hand, there's also something special about taking an idea and watching it become a reality. When I work with a maker on a custom design, I usually give him some general ideas and explain some things I need from the knife and let him take it from there. I've done that several times with Phill Hartsfield and the results have been fantastic. Sometimes I think he himself is not sure exactly what the final result will be. He talks about letting the knife "make itself." There something very exciting about owning a truly one of a kind piece from a famous maker with one's own imprint on it.
 
If the feel of a knife is important to you, then it's a good idea to order something custom based upon something you have handled and like, but does not meet certain other criteria, which is the reason you'd be ordering it custom made.

Unless you're pretty knowledgeable about knives, drawing one up and lettering the maker loose on it might wind you up with a knife thats close but no cigar in the feel and handling department.

Being a lefty presents a challenge, especially in getting folders. Unless you see something hand-made that does the trick, more than likely the lefty is destined to place an order (if the maker even does lefties) and then wait in line.

I have found that some of the great names in the business seem to be reluctant on doing custom work, as they're already making hand-made knives by the dozens for dealers and the like. By doing so, they are enjoying a higher income on the work due to the economy of scale. By making what they've already designed that sells, even more so.
 
As a maker, this has been an ongoing issue for me. I very much want what I sell to be the best that I can do. When I am making knives on spec, if I don’t like the way a design is coming out, or if I make a mistake that is difficult or impossible to correct, I can throw it in the scrap bucket. Thus what goes on my table at a show is my very best work.

However, if I take an order from a customer who wants something “like that knife, but with a blade one inch longer, a titanium guard, and dinosaur bone scales,” I have multiple problems. I will START by profiling 3 blades, and may need to do more if they don’t work out. The market price will not support this redundancy (my problem; not the customer’s), so I have to eat it. Granted, I might wind up with a couple of extra knives that I can sell – but I can also wind up with expensive trash.

Working with new materials for the first time also ensures a high scrap rate. There is a learning curve involved with each process and each material, and no one wants to buy my training wheels.

I have two custom orders on the books that are over a year old. I took one failed attempt to the Blade Show to show the buyer why I could not (yet) deliver his knife. He is a good customer and not in a hurry – but let me tell you, I feel the pressure even if it is generated internally.

I have decided to simply make what I want to make, and offer it for sale. I think everybody will be happier that way.
 
I've worked from customer designs, but(just like most makers) prefer to make what I like to make. If I am aproached to make something I don't do, I'll direct them to someone I feel will suit their needs. Most makers find their niche somewhere and they develop there. If "I" were ordering a knife, I'd be like Darby and let the maker do what he does best. If you like his/her work, you will most likely love the knife. Don't try to take the maker out of his element. Don't call John Fitch up and ask for a miniature, you'll be better served asking for what he does... a big knife. Harvey Dean for a hollow ground tactical?... ack! He could do it well without a doubt, but why?
 
I've had one knife made to my drawing.
Bruce Evans (beknives) was cool enough to make it.

I think communication is the key element in a project like this.
Like someone said, you couldn't tell Picasso what to paint...but...you could say "Senor Picasso, I really like your bulls" This way you would be aiming the artist in the right direction, but leaving the artist to be the artist.

Bruce likes to make antique repros. I chose to use elements of antique styles and combine them into a (hopefully) unique knife.
The drawing I sent him was an idea. Not a blueprint.

I left all of the important design elements up to him.
This way you don't have to sacrifice key elements, like balance, ergonomics, proportions, etc.
In the photo you can see where Bruce improved on my original idea, the ricasso/choil, making the coffin handle larger, centering the guard...

Communicate and you don't have to sacrifice :)
ebivart.jpg
 
A handmade knife is still a custom. Why you ask? Simple because I made the knife to my specifications. I designed it, chose the materials that went into it and executed the design. It may not be the custom you wanted but it was a custom I wanted put on my table.
 
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