Getting better

S

Salolan

Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Messages
730
Continuing to improve with each project. Here are the last 2 I just finished this weekend.

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One of them is going with my KITH entry knife...
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I've been using a rudimentary stitching pony I put together for the cross draw sheath project. It has drastically sped up my hand stitching.
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As always, please give any comments or critiques on anything you see I need to improve upon.
Thanks for looking,
Chris

PS. Dave, I need to give you a call if you have time to answer some questions. Thanks.
 
Those are really looking good :thumbup:
Without derailing your thread , it would be interesting to hear from the "Old Heads " here about their thoughts on the way you have stitched the belt loop onto the main body of the sheath .
I read somewhere that the best way is to leave the line of stitching out that goes across .
So the stitching ends up like a U not a D if that makes sense .
The thinking was that it's better not to have that line of stitching going across as it creates a line of weakness .
I'm not saying what you have done is wrong , far from it , but I am interested in what other more experienced than me people think .
To get back on track I must say " top work " :thumbup:


Ken
 
I've never heard that Ken. Interesting. When I stitch I use a full box, triangle or whatever the design calls for. When I started I never used cement, just stitching. I have tried tearing saddle stitched leather just to see what it can take, as well as to convince myself (at the beginning) that the thread need not be tied. I like to test stuff. Anyway my conclusion is that the strength is more influenced by the number of stitches per inch, the thread size and thickness of leather. The only time I've been able to tear the stitching was when I tried a lot of close stitches, probably on the order of 8-9 per inch, 1mm thread and roughly 10oz of veg tanned total. 5, 6 or 7 seem pretty dang durable. I now use cement because they are sold and I'd prefer not getting them back for repair and inconveniencing the customer, especially considering that it's a simple added step that takes nearly no effort. I'd bet that failed stitching amounts to poor design or possibly bad leather.

I'd love to hear what others have to say as well, especially if you've tested to failure.
 
There is an old leather crafters adage that you never stitch across a strap. That it does weaken it. However, I've seen it done a lot. On some really nice things built by some top makers. Because of this I personally am neutral on the subject. I tend not to do it but have done it. There clear as mud. I do believe however that a properly cemented joint is much stronger than just a sewn one. I tend to try and look at where the pressure for failure would come from. In this instance I personally would sew that loop with a "D". How come? I think it would be stronger. Where and what will cause stress on this joint? Just the weight of the knife and carrying it? Not so much I think. I think from catching it on something. Particularly repeated catching like getting it stuck on your seatbelt getting in and out of your truck or something similar. I think the "D" would spread the weight/stress of this out over a wider area not just limiting it to one or two stitches.

Very nice work Chris!! Really like the stitching pony too. They sure do help a lot. I will mention something I have noticed over the years and I have changed how I do things to adapt to a problemI perceived. I will definitely be in the minority here but this is how I do it and more importantly why I do this. I no longer cut and bevel a border for my basket stamping. Nor will I tool across a fold such as where these sheaths fold together. I have found that that causes a weak point. Now I'm talking over years of use and abuse but building my stuff for whom I do this has worked for me. I make a stronger product now by not doing this. I first noticed this on tooled chink tops years ago. Not only my own work but others that I admired. Where I particularly noticed it was once the chink had really taken a "set", formed a curve to the wearer's hip. I really started noticing some weakness and eventually cracking in the swivel knife cuts for the beveled border. Again this was in leggings used hard for lots of years but there it was. Not a problem for a weekend warrior kind of guy. Across the fold I really noticed it on holsters. Even done without the swivel knife cut I still noticed a weakness there so I quit doing it too. I make stuff that I know is gonna get used and abused. I also stand behind my stuff and these are a few things I've learned along the trail that have helped me build a more durable product. Just something to think on.

Chris feel free to call anytime, and I love amber bone. Just got a box full of it in myself. Really nice work knife and sheaths.
 
While I certainly don't qualify as an "old head", I believe the reason for not stitching across the strap is to prevent the leather itself from tearing along the row of holes across the strap (zippering, I've heard it called). Kinda like tearing a sheet of paper along that fine line of holes in a notebook pad. Not so much affecting the joint itself or causing the stitching to tear. I can see it being an issue on a strap being pulled hard like on a horse, but not so much on a knife sheath.

Edit: Nice work by the way Chris!
 
I agree with Horsewright, i neither use a swivelcut for the seam on bokitoproof leathergear, because it weakens the leather.
It is better to stitch in wet leather to pull the stitches under the surface.
On the other hand it has its charms because it looks good on fancy stuff.
The loop on the belt is strong enough for normal bushcraft use, and I am shure you ll be glad that it breaks under a certain force
The W form stitching is normally used on horsegear on which the stitching across really weakens the straps
Nice work, looks goods
Jos
 
Chris, you got a pic of the side on the bend? I'm not sure how you do the bottom of the bend. I'm not sure how anyone does it actually, but at the bottom of the bend I punch a somewhat large hole (roughly twice the thickness of the leather if that makes sense) and trim some leather from the edges to keep the leather from bunching or puckering at the bend (by the stitching). That may not make sense at all reading it back... I'll see if I have a pic.

Edit- rats. I lost all my pictures with the new phone. This is a pretty crappy example because the ferro rod is in the way. If you look you can see how the groove kind of circles the round punched hole at the bottom of the bend. If you make the hole twice the thickness of the leather it will fold nicely.

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This is not to say that yours isn't excellent or perfect. For all I know you are doing it better or even the same. Just passing along what has worked for me after trying a few things.

Dave, I've always stamped and grooved across the bend. I have seen some crazing on thinner, possibly stiffer leather. I'm glad you brought it up. May need to try patterning the stamping out of the bend. I haven't seen or heard of any problems from customers but who doesn't want to offer the very best in longevity? Thanks for the constant learning opps. :)

Edit- I guess the above pic also shows how I've been stamping and grooving across the bend. I wouldn't send out a bend that wasn't what I thought would be of good quality but I really have no idea how it works after years of use. May be a good lesson here for all of us new makers.

Final edit (I promise)- Chris, just wanted to say that I've been keeping up on the KITH knives. Yours is one of my favorites. Love the long bolster/short ricasso. I really hope you get a good one! It's an exciting deal for sure.
 
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Thank you fellas.
Dave, I pray you weren't too heavily chastised in the shop for taking the time to talk to me this morning. Dave pointed out in our conversation that he noticed there we 2 sheaths shown but only 1 knife. These knives were my first experience with bone scales and my inexperience led to some disappointment on the 2nd knife. One of the scales was bad, completely porous all the way through. I could have caught it just by looking at it, had I known what to look for.
Here is the bad side Dave... I ground nearly all the jigged portion off, trying to get it to highlight the color. There are only 3 or 4 spots just over the pins that are still the jigged part, the rest are just pores that shouldn't be there.
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Thanks again,
Chris
 
Yes, Anthony, I put a hole at the top where the welt ends at the fold. However, I think I should have made it a little larger as there is some bunching at that point.

Thank you for the compliments on the knife, I have really came a long ways in the 40 knives I have made since last years KITH. Tthese 2 were my first attempts at stainless steel bolster and also the jigged bone. My intentions were to pin and solder the bolsters but after 2 attempts I figured out that it was going to require more practice than I had time for on this project. In hindsight, I don't think I was getting things quite hot enough, the solder was melting but not running. I ended up pinning and JB welding the bolsters as I know plenty of makers do, I had just hoped to solder these.

Chris
 
You bet Strig. Just stuff I've found. And it may never be a problem for you but it sure has been for me so I quit. My son had been around the last few days and he was listening to Chris and I talk. Afterwards we were down at the tack room and I showed him an example of the differences that I had there on a couple of pair of leggings. He was pretty surprised at the difference and could see how the lack of doing that would add to the longevity.

Not to worry Chris I don't chatise well. I do like to give her the impression that she can crack the whip and get me busy but it is an illusion. Call any time. She and my son were making fun of me cause I tend to walk around when on the phone. Not sure why, just do. The longer the conversation the more I walk around. Man that scale is a pita. Chisel er off and start over. Ouch, yes dear I'm heading back to the shop.

.
 
Lol So that's why there were times when the phone would start cutting out. I just thought it was because I was sitting in my truck out in the woods cutting firewood when I called. Don't worry though, I tend to have the nervous pacing while talking on the phone as well.

I used acraglas to attach the scales. I had thought about trying to boil it to see if it would loosen, think a chisel is the best bet?

Chris

P.S. Where do you guys recommend getting a makers mark stamp made? I had thought of getting a poly stamp made, unless there was significant reason to avoid them.
 
Chris, this guy is awesome. Can't say enough good about him. Prices are very good and he even makes free "Made in the USA" stamps for those who would like to identify in that way. He sends pics to verify that you like the impression, then makes the stamp and sends the stamp and leather impression sample together. Quick turn around. I'll be buying another one from him, this time a bit smaller. Can't have too many choices imo.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/193431128/custom-leather-stamp-or-leather?ref=cat_gallery_5

I've actually had a couple of requests that the stamp be put on the front of sheaths. People seem to like his work. :)
 
Yeah punch the pins first. Just open your vise about a 1/4" lay the pin on top of that opening and punch er out. Then I use a cold chisel and smack off the scales. I have a small drill table vise that I open about 1/2" wider than the handle and I lay the knife in there like a cradle, edge up. Grind off anything that remains. I've got one of my hunters on the bench with elk waiting for the same treatment. This one has corbys though so it 'll need sawing first.

There was a whole thread on makers stamps a while back. In fact I think it was Strigs thread. Seemed like all the different kinds of stamps seemed to work pretty well. I used steel, Paul used brass and lots of guys used the derlin.
 
I looked for that thread, couldn't find it. Chris, I have a thread on making your own stamp too. While the Greek Omega symbol didn't come out perfectly it came out better than I'd thought considering my tools, experience and time involved. If you want something simple (probably best to leave the wording to the pros) it's entirely possible, especially considering that you've ground steel.
Check out Macan and Crawdaddy's stamps.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1194401
 
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Lots of good info in this thread. Found a couple of pics that illustrate the strap sewing question.



If you look at how the D rings are attached on this martingale, both the one up by the shoulder and the larger one down on the chest and how they are attached. I think this is the question that Ken had about the belt loop attachment on Chris' sheath. These d rings take a lot of pressure. The idea behind a martingale is that it stablizes the saddle either climbing steep hills or while roping. I never stitch across this attachment. I've made probably a hundred of these martingales and I've never had one of these attachments fail. I've had em used till the leather was wore out but the attachments didn't fail. This method of stitiching is very strong.

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So in this second pic my son has this baldie calf necked and is dragging him along to set up the heel shot for his partner. You get the movement going and it is much easier on the calf as they don't sit back on the rope running short of air. Anyhoo, you can see how Mr Brown, my son's horse is leaning forward into the martingale pulling on that calf. This calf probably weigh 650lbs or so. Imagine the pressure when you've got to pull some 2,000 lb bull out of boggy ground to doctor him for foot rot. Just some more stuff to think on.
 
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I don't want to speak for Jason (Tal), but he does mention that he uses an arc in his top stitch line on his sheaths. I think the idea is to better distribute tension and resist the "zipper" effect.

I've got a couple of finished sheaths here that have a straight stitch, I've just tried to pull them apart. They are 5spi, 1mm braided Tiger thread and roughly 14-16oz total leather. I am no Hercules, however, I'm not weak. I can pull at what I'd consider abuse and not have a failure. Having tested the stitches on more than a couple of stitching examples I'm not convinced that anything more is needed. I think this is a case of over-thinking when it comes to knife sheaths, but that's just one man's opinion. I'm not really concerned that it'll ever be a problem for my customers, but I'd shake the hand of the man that managed to get a failure! ;)
 
Buddy you may not want to shake his hand!!! Just buy him a cup of coffee.
 
Finally finished up the 2nd knife that I had to redo the handle on. Thinking I might be liking the sheep horn better than the jigged bone.

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Chris
 
Very nice Chris!! You did a great job keeping the texture of the horn. That is not always easy to do with that stuff.
 
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