Getting The Word Out..

[Jon Brand]

The thread about the new Lark book got me thinking alot about this topic. Custom knives as a known art form to the mainstream. Am I worrying too much about this topic or could this fade away depending on the future generations?

I am really curious to hear if anyone has more ideas on how to get the word out. I wonder if many art publications take submissions in a generic form. If we learned how, we could all send some pictures and info to random places and see what happens.. Maybe it doesn't work like that but I'd love to help in any way I could.

Any thoughts, ideas etc..? Do the high prices of nice knives drive people away and make it impossible?

 

[sidecutter]

guy i work with spent 23k on a bass boat. pulls it with a 30k silverado. so , $300-400 for a knife sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Ken Hurst]

Newspapers love to have Sunday public interest items . Send pictures of your best work with pictures of you working from start to finish to your local papers --- most likely they'll want to take their own pic's along with a brief interview --- better yet, take the knives & pic's to the paper and ask to speak to someone re. this trade/art form.

 

[r connally]

I've found that "mainstream" folks hear knife collecting and think I'm off center. After showing fancier folders some show interest from an art perspective. Engaging non traditional art lovers/collectors could be an approach to expanding interest in knife collecting.

Handle material like yellow lip pearl or fancy ivory usually gets their attention first. If they are still with me I explain how damascus is made (mosaic gets the most eyeball attention). At that point you know if it is going to keep their interest or just pass as an interesting curiosity.

The other type of person is immediately drawn to anything tactical that looks intimidating. I just whip out my Mosier and they are hypnotized

In either case, I haven't found the cost of mid price point (800-1500) knives off putting to them. Start talking $5000 and up gets raised eyebrows.

A news worthy approach could be to publicize charity knives like those raffled by the CKCA to raise funds cancer charities. Efforts like that tend to resonate with the mainstream.

 

[T.K.C.]

I do think that things like the CKCA calendar helps, as it gives people who might not be normally exposed to high end art knives a chance to see them.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Jonathan,

First, "Nice" knife is probably the wrong word. Embellished would be better.

I just received an F-4 Tactical Folder from John W. Smith...technically it is as "nice" as the knives that John will make for the Art Knife Invitational later this year. As nice...but not embellished.

There are a lot of very "Nice" knives $600 and under...both stock removal and forged. The vast majority of knives knives made are well under $1,000.

Second:

Am I worrying too much about this topic or could this fade away depending on the future generations

When I got involved with Custom knives 25 years ago there was basically 4-6 shows in the US. Maybe a couple in other parts of the.

Today (as an example) we have 3 custom shows in 2 weeks (ABS Show, PKA Show and Oklahoma Custom Knife Show). Then next month we have the Guild Show and the Chicago Show, October has the Art Knife Invitational, November features the NY Custom Knife show...and there are others that I missed.

Today there are more makers, dealers and collectors than there were 10 years ago. This is in no small part due to the Internet.

I have a theory that custom knife shows (sales wise) have been so poor this year due to a "Perfect Storm" of sorts.

Combine a slow economy/economic uncertainty, people who have to fly to shows are less than confident about flying their knives home in an unlocked suitcase (fair or not there is a high level of concern) and last the Internet.

The Internet may be the "hurricane" of the storm. People have gotten very comfortable buying knives off of the Internet. Couple this with the cost of going to a major show and the economy. Many have chosen to spend the "Show Expense" money buying a knife on the Internet...possibly two.

Giving the false appearance that slow shows are an indication of slow custom knife sales.

Example the 3 days before the Blade show this year, I sold 5 Times the Dollar amount of what I sold at the 3 days at the Blade Show. While I had my worst Blade Show in 17 years....I would take that week of sales every week!

So the shows may seem slow and some are. However, this is no longer an accurate indication of the current custom knife market. The Internet has been really cutting into show sales for years. Perhaps the slow economy was impetuous for the "Tipping Point" to occur between shows and Internet sales??

With regards to the cost of a knife. What my experience has shown me is that it is the level of "Knife Education Level" more so than level of cash in the wallet that will dictate the purchase of a "Nice" knife.

Most people go through the learning process of factory knives, inexpensive custom knives ($150 and under) then over the course of 2-4 years move up to the $500 - $1000 level.

This occurs while spending thousands of dollars to pay for that "education".

I suspect that TKC who appears to primarily collect tactical folders (although I know from experience she has/had at least 1 hunter) has probably spent more than enough money on those knives over the last 5 years to have purchase just about any "REALLY NICE" knife she would like to.

So in her case and the case of countless other collectors...the have the knife education, the funds and have chosen on a particular style or genre of custom knives. That rarely include "Embellished" knives.

Consequently, even if someone like sidecutter's friend has the bass boat and Silverado. One they may not have $400 to spend on a knife . Two while it appears the person has the money....they probably don't have the "Knife Education" to understand and appreciate why a custom knife would cost $300 or $400.

As Ken, R C and TKC point out they seem to in one form or another discussing "custom knife education".

Oddly enough the two organizations with the most to gain in educating custom knife collectors: The ABS and Knifemakers Guild do very little to that end. Seminars for collectors at their show once a year is not nearly enough.

Compare what these two organizations have done not just on an annual basis but over the last 20 years to what the CKCA has done to educate custom knife collectors. There is no comparison, the CKCA trumps their meager efforts at educating knife buyers.
Before all you makers head for the keyboard...I am discussing educating "Custom Knife Collectors/Buyers" not "Custom Knife Makers"

RC a side note, I like your "Mid Price Point"....Ten years ago that would have been the "High Price Point".

This is another indication that people are getting educated and are willing to buy more "Nice" knives.

Jonathan, if the last 25 years is any indication...things should do nothing but get better for custom knives in the future.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Good thread Jon.
I'm not worrying about Custom Knives as a collectible medium going away, however we do need IMO to bring in new collectors if it's going to continue to thrive and even advance to new levels. The mainstream art and collectible communities are great avenues for our expansion.
Anything we can do to put custom knives in front of someone who has not been exposed is a good thing. It doesn't always have be a great organized effort such as media advertisement either. Each of us as custom knife enthusiasts can do simple things such as the next time you go to your barber, doctors or Lawyers office (anywhere you are used to having to wait 15-20 minutes) take an old copy of Blade or KI to read and leave it on the table. Who knows, maybe 40-50 folks will thumb through it over a 4-6 week period.

I agree Les we need more collector seminars. I have attended your BLADE seminar and it's very good and I always hear they're good. My seminar delivery is improving though I felt my AG Russell presentation was sub par at best. Though having said that, interest was good and they always turn into VERY GOOD productive discussion in the end.

I also agree that collector education is extremely important to makers, however the ABS and Guild are more set-up to educate and progress makers.
I believe this is why the CKCA has enjoyed so much support from both ABS and Guild member makers. Perhaps they recognize the CKCA as the most efficient vehicle for educating collectors thus offering their support in this effort. Thank you Les for your above acknowledgment of the CKCA's progress in this area. That's encouraging considering our relatively short time on the ground.

I also agree with your "Perfect Storm" analogy in reference to recent shows.
Another thing that's possibly hurting shows is that the poor economy is causing some collectors to cancel knife orders reducing maker's order lists. Thus other collectors are seeing their knife orders accelerated taking funds from what would normally be used for show knife purchases.

On a more positive note, I'm noticing shows are still "upbeat" and being enjoyed and some collectors attending are getting some great knives at very good prices.

 

[cdent]

I think support of organizations that promote fishing, hunting and shooting to kids are helpful even if the kids don't participate. They have to be tolerant first of knife craft to be remotely interested. All other parts of formative education seem to demonize any 'weapon'.

 

[lwrhea]

Jon,
This is a subject that always gets my attention. Thanks for bringing it up.

I believe that, for some at least, understanding the process would make all the difference. The more makers can involve the collectors or potential collectors, the better. Demonstrations of forging or grinding or heat treating will be of great interest to some and would allow them to see the process it takes to get from raw materials to finished knife. They would look at a knife with new eyes. I really believe this aspect of education is not stressed enough.
Some of us makers here in Arkansas will set up at the hunting expos and demonstrate for the public. If we dont actually show folks what lengths are taken to make our knives, the general public will have no idea why we hold them so valuable. Lin

 

[nikoknife48]

I think any young kid who comes across one of his Dad's pocket knives will take an interest in collecting just like I did. A never ending quest of the blade !

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Cdent:

I think support of organizations that promote fishing, hunting and shooting to kids are helpful even if the kids don't participate. They have to be tolerant first of knife craft to be remotely interested. All other parts of formative education seem to demonize any 'weapon'.

The organizations that support anything...are there to promote that...not additional items.

People who fish, as an example are about what it is that will catch fish....a knife does not catch fish. Given the choice between the latest reel or pole or fish finder....guaranteed to get you bigger better and more fish.

Take Sidecutter's friend with the Bass Boat and Truck. Truck takes the boat to the lake, boat takes you to the fish, pole+ reel+hook and bait or lure..catch the fish. Many places are becoming catch and release...if release occurs after the catch (as opposed to keeping and "Finally using a knife" filleting the fish)...they don't even need a knife.

To a large extent same go for hunters. Especially those who use a guide...the guide dresses out the animal.

However you are exactly right that organizations should "EDUCATE" the collectors and potential collectors.

I would welcome any board member of the Guild or the ABS to post here exactly what they do to promote their members and their knives to collector and potential collectors...all year around.

While it is an excellent idea to explore any and all avenues to find more knife collectors.

Custom knives are a "specialty" item. You are much more likely find collectors of custom knives having more in common with those who collect watches, pens and guns...than those who are serious hunters and fisherman.
Don't confuse gun collectors with Hunters. Some who collect guns (especially .45's and Assault rifles and combat shotguns) are not hunters.

As for kids..tough sell there. You are competing for Ipod and Xbox and Cell phone dollars...plus if a kid gets caught with a knife on him or even in their car...the school system wants to persecute them to the fullest extent of the law. At a minimum they will be expelled from the school. Not much incentive to give a kid a knife.

Over the past 10 years the two best friends that custom knives has had are:

1) The Internet

2) The factories, who to a large extent have come to rely on custom knife makers to do their design and R&D

While no one has addressed it...how much information/education has been given on forums such as this one?

There are lots of good ideas out there. I would suggest those of you who are honorary members of the ABS or the Guild. Write the board members and ask them what their plan is for the next 12 months to help promote custom knives.

I think you will be surprised at what you find out.

 

[cdent]

Hi Cdent:

The organizations that support anything...are there to promote that...not additional items.

People who fish, as an example are about what it is that will catch fish....a knife does not catch fish....To a large extent same go for hunters. Especially those who use a guide...the guide dresses out the animal.

However you are exactly right that organizations should "EDUCATE" the collectors and potential collectors....Custom knives are a "specialty" item. You are much more likely find collectors of custom knives having more in common with those who collect watches, pens and guns...than those who are serious hunters and fisherman.
Don't confuse gun collectors with Hunters. Some who collect guns (especially .45's and Assault rifles and combat shotguns) are not hunters.

As for kids..tough sell there...

Sorry Les,

I didn't mean to imply any marketing connection, only that there're nonknife related groups who would be tolerant and not automatically demonize the industry.

I'd suppose it's up to the industry in general to then work the market. The tolerant group keeps getting smaller, yet they do represent possibilities beyond the watch and pen collecting group.

I know they're indifferent, but they may listen to a marketing strategy a bit longer than the intolerant folks. Just thoughts, Craig

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Craig,

Nothing to be sorry about. Obviously I did a poor job explaining what I meant.

You are right, organizations should help their membership get better educated in all facets of the hobby.

Golf is another example...the same guy would would pay $300 for some gizmo to take a stroke off their game would scoff at a $300 knife.

An effective marketing strategy can in fact be a very persuasive educational device.

Marketing is used as an "educational" device every day in all areas of our lives....so why aren't the knife organizations doing something like this?

After all aren't part of the dues and membership fees supposed to go to that?

 

[jdm61]

Les has a very good point about "knife education" I have been frequenting some of the traditional muzzleloader forums of late and those guys seem to have a WORSE problem than a lot of the modern gun nuts whenit comes to knives. They will spend many thousands of dollars on custom front stuffers and some pretty long green on custom acoutrements like bags,powder horns, etc., but you don't see very many high dollar customs knives other than the occasional one from guys like Dan Winkler or the two headed monster that is the Tai Goo/Chuck Burrows collaboration. There are some guys who are making nice period correct stuff that IMO, aren't charging enough, but a lot of people just seem willing to buy the el cheapo stuff from the "sutlers" Even the gun guys like Hershel House who get sick money for their rifles, sell knives for under $500.