Getting very frustrated trying to sharpen

FlaMtnBkr

FlaMtnBkr

Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
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I am starting to think that I am just not meant to be able to sharpen knives. I have the paper wheels and can get a knife very sharp with them. However, after repeated use on my most used EDC knives, I have taken off an 1/8" of the blade on two different knives. So I want to move away from the paper wheels except for quick touch ups now and then.

I have a lansky ceramic stick block, two nice strops, and most recently an edgepro that I bought used but has been lightly used and well taken care of.

I got my most recent purchase, a M4 Benchmade Rift. It came kind of sharp, would shave but not pop hairs. So I got out the edge pro and put the 800 grit stone on. I put marker on the edge and adjusted the arm until I was hitting just the edge of the bevel. Using just the weight of the stone and alternating the sides of the blade I proceeded to make it so it will not shave at all.

I have read a lot on sharpening and feel like I understand what is supposed to happen, yet when it comes to actually doing it I make things worse.

The same thing has happened with the strops. I will take a sharp knife and want to refine it and get it a little sharper. I take light edge trailing passes with essentially the weight of the blade and dull the thing.

Are there any tricks to see the light so to speak? I keep buying sharpening equipment and none of it has helped so far.

I have been using sears green chromium oxide (I know it's not very good) and bare leather but have 1 and 0.5 micron diamond spray on order from hand american. Although it has been a few weeks since I made the order and haven't heard anything, hopefully it won't have been a waste of money.

What can I do to figure this out? I don't even see how I am using enough pressure to make the edge dull compared to how an edge will last when actually using it. But it happens.

Could maybe someone walk me through what to do with the edge pro assuming you are starting off with a fairly sharp blade that will shave arm hair decently?

If not anyone want to buy a bunch of sharpening equipment? I guess if I can't figure it out I will have to keep using the paper wheels and just buy a new knife every year or two from taking off the edge. It's a shame to do that to nice limited edition knives with fancy super steels, but I need to have a knife that cuts.

Any suggestions? Any help? Anyone live in North Florida that wants to show me what the hell I'm doing wrong?

Thanks!

Ryan

PS Is the video that is on the edge pro website the same one that comes with the sharpener? Mine didn't have the video with it.
 
I'm right there with you Ryan. I can get a blade sorta sharp, but am no where near that Zen level where I want to be. And I have read enough here that I could explain everything to a newby and get him well on his way to knowing how to sharpen, but I am still lacking the skilz myself. I'm still trying, though. I cannot get a knife sharp on a Sharpmaker, and there aren't many who can say that.
 
One thing I'd point out is that a blade that doesn't shave isn't necessarily too far from being hair whittlingly sharp. When I've done with my DMT guided system, none of my blades will shave. However, 20 on the corners and 20 on the flats of my Sharpmaker white ceramic get them all sharp enough to at least pop hairs off your arm, and in a lot of cases sharp enough to whittle hair.
 
How about trying a microbevel trick?
Just slightly change the angle, with small amount of pressure on a fine grit stone/strop.
This is what I do to add more sharpness on a already sharp edge.
 
Just more proof that no matter what you have sharpening is a learned skill that only comes with practice and time. My suggestion, go back to basics, buy a good set of bench stones and do it freehand. If you could hold a angle on the wheels you can do it with a stone.
 
Thanks for the replies so far, keep them coming!

I would like to not spend more money than I have and would like to use what I have. It would seem that if I can't get the edge pro to work where the angle is being held for me, then free hand on a stone is not going to give much better results.

I really like the edges I have seen that come off the edge pro. I like the very even grinds. I know people use it to get scary sharp edges so I guess I just need to keep practicing.

If the knife is already sharp, a burr shouldn't need to be created to refine the edge and make it sharper, should it? I would think alternating sides ever couple strokes to minimize burr formation and to polish the edge would be the correct thing to do?

Edit: Could someone maybe explain how using very light pressure would be dulling the edge?
 
M4 is some tough stuff, you might need diamonds. Try sharpening a cheap knife with some softer steel to get the feel for it.
 
You most likely are removing the burr with your strop that you produced during the sharpening process. It is important that you DO NOT GO ON TO STEP 2 BEFORE COMPLETING STEP 1, and so on. Not following this one rule is 90% of the sharpening problems i see when reading many of these type of posts. Dont worry about the knives you need the practice.
 
Don't feel too bad. I found more knowledge didn't really help, until I figured out not only the "hows" of sharpening, but also the "whys".

It is interesting. I've kinda come full circle. Way back when I had a system for making my knives sharp, which was derived pretty much through trial and error. No fancy sharpening systems, just a cheap stone and a couple improvised tools. I didn't understand quite why I got good edges, but I got acceptable results, so didn't worry too much about it.

Coming across a myriad of widely accepted methods, and giving them a go, my results got worse. This was puzzling, as I was using fancier tools, and methods promoted by authoritative figures. Still, this was knowledge in the "how" department, not the "why".

Long story short: this is my quick conclusion in the "why". Knives almost universally come with edges that are more thick and obtuse than necessary. Price isn't necessarily an indicator. Almost as common, knife edges come with weakened steel, prone to rolling and/or chipping, while on a very small scale, have very noticeable results.

The solution to consistently sharp edges?

  1. Make those edge bevels thin and acute. How thin? A zero edge is best. At least this is the ideal. It's not always practical, but is what I strive for. How acute? As acute as yo can go.
  2. Get rid of weak edge steel. I do this by running the blade perpendicular to the stone for a few light passes, as if you're trying to cut it in two. Then start with a fresh bevel

My heresy: At this point, avoid creating a burr. Burring is a good indication that you are removing material from the cutting edge. It's also an indication that the thinnest part of the blade is fatigued. This will result in continued rolling and/or chipping on a tiny level. Learn how to detect a burr. Even the tiniest burr can be detected by feel. This might be advanced level sharpening. A beginner may not know how to tell this stuff. Practice is what it takes.

Once I figured these things out, I found I could consistently get a sharp, durable edge on pretty much any steel, using just about any method. These days, I use cloth wheels, mostly because I have a crapload of them, they work fast and easily put a fine polish on the edge. But I also get good results from natural or synthetic stone, diamond stone or rod, ceramic stone and even carbide scraper. All freehand.
 
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FlaMtnBkr,

Very few knives (almost none), come with even bevels. Or the final edge is buffed at a very steep angle, sometimes on just one side. One thing about using a guided system is that you can be almost to the edge, close enough you can't see it, but not quite there. One suggestion I have is to look at it under magnification. I'm a big fan of the Radio Shack pocket microscope. I've seen edges that look good to the eye, look good with a 10-15x loupe, but under the microscope, I can see where I just wasn't quite to the edge. If all you're doing is a few very light passes, you may just be hitting one side which will dull it. You may not be doing enough to even raise a noticable burr, but it's probably there.

I think you'd have better luck initially, if you get a knife and actually sharpen it, and not just try to touch it up. I pretty much do this on any knife no matter how I sharpen it, even freehand. That way the bevels are set for the method I'm using, and I eliminate any problems that I may not even be able to see. Then if I go to touch it up later, everything is 'lined up' and it works much better than trying to match what is already there. Grab a small kitchen knife, and like someone said already, stick to the basics. Go thru all the steps that are in the manual or the video on the website... raise a burr, etc. Once you get a few knives sharp this way, you can see what works best for you, and you'll also learn to better diagnose problems that you're having.

cbw
 
Regarding paper wheels, I found that a very light pass on each side with slightly deeper angle creates a micro-bevel that will preserve blade material longer than a full regrind every time. Also, couple passes on the polishing wheel does wonders w/o going to the grit wheel. Perhaps you're removing metal unnecessarily?

Of course you may be using your knives much harder than I do and need more frequent touch ups. I just can't see how that much metal gets ground off w/o dozens of regrinds.
 
Excellent advice already, so some of what I'll add is redundant.

It actually sounds like you're doing many things correctly. Ryan, so don't despair. :) You obviously understand the basic process and techniques, and have some good tools to work with.

First thing I would suggest is forget about stropping for now. Except for the very hardest, high alloy steels, you should be able to easily get a knife extremely sharp finishing only with fine ceramic, which is what I assume your ceramic stick block is (I most often use an old Case Crock Sticks setup, I imagine what you have is similar.)

So just go back to basics, and make it a simple, two-step process: relief bevel, and microbevel. First take the relief/primary bevels down using your Edge Pro -- 12 degrees per side is IMO a very good compromise for most uses, 10 degrees or sometimes even less for high quality blades that will not see hard use. Use light pressure like you have, especially as you're finishing up, and no need to go much higher than ~250-350 grit with "conventional stones, maybe ~600 grit if using diamond, although finer is OK too. Then apply a microbevel at a higher angle with your ceramic sticks: 20 degs/side is fine, and probably about the angle of your sticks. You can apply a microbevel with the Edge Pro as well, but the sticks will be faster, and easier for now.

If you've done the job well setting the primary/relief bevels, it shouldn't take more than maybe 10-12 very light, alternating strokes on each side using the sticks before you'll have a sharper-than-shaving-sharp edge. It may take a little longer on your M4 and other high hardness, premium steel blades, but this is the basic approach I use with practically all of my knives.
 
Thanks for the replies!

I think there is some very good advise in here, thank you.

As far as the edge pro I have 220, 320, and 800 with some polishing tapes. It didn't come with a 120 grit. This is the main reason I haven't started from the beginning is because it seemed like it was going to take forever trying to reprofile with the 220 grit. I think I will just put it up until I get a better assortment of stones.

As far as stropping is concerned I am hoping the diamond spray will cut faster and make more of a difference so I can better see what is going on.

The paper wheels I should maybe try to relearn those as well and go back and read everything I can find on them again. I rarely use the grit wheel. I only use it if a knife is really dull or I just can't get a knife sharp on the polishing wheel. What I have found is that to get a real sharp edge I go to a steeper angle on the polishing wheel than I did on the grit wheel. So I guess I end up putting a steep microbevel on the edge. I sometimes will have to use more pressure than I think is necessary (not real hard but not a super light touch either) to get a knife sharp. On my main EDC the blade was pretty darn thin from the factory and it seems like it wore through the thinnest part at the edge pretty quick. In the future I will try to play around some and not hold it at any steeper angle and maybe use less pressure. I just adapted my technique until I was getting really sharp knives and I might have learned something bad. Since I don't use the grit wheel and mainly sharpen on the polishing wheel holding the edge at a steep angle with some pressure might be what is wearing away the metal so fast and giving me results without the grit. Where if I take my time and lightly use the grit wheel and then match the angle with the polishing wheel and use light pressure I will get a good sharp blade but not taking away as much material. Anyways, I'm rambling now.

Thanks for the advise so far. I guess when ever I go through the basics like what was said and get the diamond spray I will report back. Hopefully I won't be having any problems by then. If anyone still has some suggestions I would still love to hear them.

Thanks!
 
Greetings FlaMtnBkr: The following is a modified cut and paste job from an older thread. Regardless of which method or abrasive you use, all sharpening is essentially the same. It involves creating a CONSISTENT intersection of both sides of the knife blade along the cutting edge. The more perfectly the sharpened angles meet the sharper the edge. A bench stone mounted flat on a table, a fixed angle ceramic rod system, a bench grinder mounted paper wheel, a blade clamping guided rod system or an arm mounted water stone (EdgePro) only address one half of the sharpening equation. They all keep EITHER the blade OR the abrasive medium in a fixed position. They don't perfectly lock down both. Out of necessity and design, there is some room for blade edge/sharpening stone contact angle variance. The EdgePro is and excellent system but it is not perfect. A minor variance in how and where the blade is held on the table edge or a change in the downward pressure of the stone arm can change the angle of contact on the edge being sharpened. This is not readily noticeable when re-profiling or when removing a lot of metal. As the sharpened edge develops it becomes more important. When getting down to the finer grits on the VERY edge, PRECISE repetition of stone arm pressure and PRECISE blade position/stone contact point become substantially more important. The target area (the cutting edge) is tiny. Ideally, it would be invisible without magnification. You may wish to use the sharpie trick each time you MOVE THE BLADE on the table or CHANGE to a higher grit stone. This will let you see what is really happening vs. what you think is happening as you progress. Even if you sharpen the edge until the Sharpmaker line disappears, you may still be imperceptivity short of the very edge. I sharpen till the line is gone and then sharpen at least ten strokes more. To a novice like me, only the presence of a burr on the opposite side indicates that the very edge has been reached and passed. If the contact angle of each new stone, relative to the edge is not just about exactly equal to the angle and contact point of the previously used stone you may wind up with less than stellar results. While familiarizing myself with the Edgepro, I would get a great edge with one stone but wind up removing it with the next stone of higher grit. The same condition can result when moving the blade edge along the table. Use LESS stone pressure and MORE contact point consistency. EdgePro stones become dished with use. This will exacerbate your problem. Make sure your LIGHTLY USED stones are in fact dressed flat. Just because they look flat doesn't mean they are flat. Minor variances in stone contact angle, contact pressure and flatness may not prevent getting a very sharp edge but they will frustrate you in obtaining an EXTREMELY sharp edge. Use the Sharpie marker and look with a lens, if necessary, at the EXTREME edge. See if this is where the sharpening is actually taking place. Less pressure and higher consistency of repetition, obtaining a bur and patience were key for me. The EdgePro will maintain a precise stone angle YOU must maintain a consistent blade edge position. Post # 19 in this thread may help with the stropping.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640503

Experienced free hand sharpeners appear to do this unconsciously. OldDude1
 
First off, good choice with the handamerican, you should be quite surprises with the results after honing. Now, in reply to your posts.

practice practice practice, just because one system is not/ does not seem to be working for you that does not mean it is not working properly.With that said, you should also know the limitations of your equipment. You cant expect a KIA pride to ever out perform a Ferrari. I think your biggest problem is being too diverse in your gear that you have not spent enough time with one to fully get the most out of it. Just a thought.

As for how you can be dulling the edge with light pressure on hones, it depends really. It could be that your angle is too high or you do it well and create a burr that you don't remove. also, how are you testing the sharpness? If you are cutting rope then going further than 1.5micron would/could be a bit too much. the smooth glass like edge would need a little more teeth to bite into rope. If you are testing it with hair then you are either rolling the edge or leaving the burr. one more thing is that maybe you are doing it right and that your edge is more like glass then a saw. If so, you know that glass is sharp but it doesn't "feel" sharp.

Some advice though, i would stay well clear from stropping just now. the hone should be enough. Just for clarification purposes, HONING is the process where the edge bevel is defined and chips, dents, or pits are removed from the edge. The honing happens on a flat stationary surface and this is where you would be using your handamerican. STROPPING is the last step in sharpening and smooths the edge to a final shaving edge *not ideal for cutting rope and you could use the finer diamond slurry's like the 0.25 micron. The reason I say leave it for now is because I can get hair popping results with honing on 0.5 micron but when i attempt to strop with the 0.25 i lose the edge.

SO, practice practice practice, I'm with knifenut on going for the bench stone and hones, then finally strops. all over the world people with this setup have scary sharp edges, you don't see videos of people going from the edgepro to whittling hairs.

I could have missed the beat with some of the things I've said but that's because its late and im tired. I just hope this helped. best of luck and... practice, practice, practice.
 
when you are using the edge pro could it be that the stones you are using is not perfectly flat? btw any time you want to sell your edge pro, i am assuming it's an apex, just send me an email or leave a visitor message plz:D ty!
 
I can't really comment on the EP as I have never laid a hand on one, Im a long time "free hander", but just recently invested in proper equipment to put to use all that time spent playing and learning and getting cut growing up haha.

What I did want to contribute to this discussion, relative to stropping, some of you guys who are having trouble dulling knives on your strops, have you tried hard pressed felt/diamond slurry? Ive been playing with such for the last month or so, and it seems VASTLY more forgiving in both angle and pressure as compared to leather. Not to mention 1 micron diamond on hard wool felt will flat out POLISH an edge, like FAST!! Ive been going 1 micron diamond on felt, to .5 micron CrO on brushed leather, .25 Micron diamond on felt, then hard pressed horse leather finish strop. I have to pay MUCH closer attention when on the two leather pads as opposed to the felt to not destroy my hard work. But when I get it right....oh son. My gf said if I pull one more of her hairs to show her how i can split curley cues and cork screws off of them....lol...yeah shes a keeper :D
 
yes, I too have found love for the hard wool felt. I have been using it plain as my finish and the .25 diamond slurry on the horse leather. sick results... i never get bored cutting and chopping things up now...

Gotsouthern, are you able to do the hanging hair test, i still cant quite get there just yet.

ALSO, for Flamtnbkr, light lighter lightest strokes ;p a heavy hand does no good.
 
Not quite to free hanging, but once it bites in it'll usually either throw a pretty little split or curl, or chop it off clean. At this point, its just how deep your issue runs as to much further you can really take it. I'll let you know when I get there.....:D

All joking aside, hard wool felt is friggin' awesome. Both my brother and my best friend are getting hard wool strops for Christmas, along with a little of HAs one micron spray. Let them keep their blades up when I'm not around. Its great for touch ups, works so fast for a strop.
 
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