Give me your opinions of these steels being used for an Axe Head.

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snapshot2017

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What opinions do you fellow forum members have of these steels, being used to an Axe head.

1040 C.S. 5150 C.S. 5160 C.S. 420 C.S. and 4140 C.S.
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Adding: 5140 and 1044
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I understand the heat treating is also very important , but just let me know what you think of using these steels without knowing the heat treating.
 
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I am looking at a few Axes made by different companies using different steels, and just am asking what forum members think of these steels.
But thanks for including the thread you posted it give good information.
 
5160 and 4140 are both great choices. I've used them both in axe heads. And in general their characteristics are ideal/suitable for what an axe head requires.

Never seen / heard of 5150 in the cutlery world. 1040 might not have enough carbon to get hard enough? I don't know honestly.
 
I think that 1040 and 4140 will at best make a passable axe. 1040 is too low in carbon for a plain carbon steel. For plain carbon 1055 or equivalent is the minimum. 4140 is good for hammer like a blacksmiths cross pein hammer but it's a little low in carbon for an axe. You can reach acceptable RC levels with it but it's not good steel at that hardness. On the plus side it's easier to work with then other comparable steels. It would be a great steel to practice forging techniques with.

5160 is just a great steel for many things. It's a good choice. 1060 would be close/comparable to 5160 and a little easier to forge. If I were to attempt to forge an axe I would choose 1060.
 
I’ve pondered the Kharkiv Forge carving tool and axes from time to time but their steel is listed as 52100 HRC - 58-59. I brought this up in another thread and got a response that could maybe make a decent carving axe.

I get the sense its durability for a full-size axe isn’t prime but if treated properly maybe a smaller tool?

KharkivForge if it helps:
https://etsy.me/2oy3JVQ
 
52100 looks like a very good choice for an axe. It requires a pretty high forging temperature.
 
Juaregi uses C-45(1045). And have received some pretty good reviews from some users here.
 
4140 and 4142 are used because they're not as difficult to work with in a small forge as plain high carbon steels like 1060 or 1080. Just because an excellent smith uses it don't mean it's the best choice. No doubt it makes a serviceable tool and I don't doubt Liam's or James' ability to give it a good heat treat.

"Council Tools USFS Boy's Axe uses 4140"

I'd like to see your source for this. They used to advertise it as meeting FS specs, minimum 72 points of carbon.

"3.2.1.1 Steel composition. The tool head of each type of ax shall be forged from fully killed plain carbon AISI/SAE steel containing 0.72 to 0.93 percent carbon, 0.30 to 0.90 percent manganese, not more than 0.040 percent phosphorus, and not more than 0.050 percent sulfur. Steel composition of the head shall be determined as specified in 4.5.1.1."
 
Square_peg said:
4140 and 4142 are used because they're not as difficult to work"
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That’s true and they are cheap and readily available. Cheaper and easier to find than higher carbon steels.
I have a lot of thoughts on this subject I’ll type up a better response when I get home
 
Kentucky said:
That’s true and they are cheap and readily available. Cheaper and easier to find than higher carbon steels.
I have a lot of thoughts on this subject I’ll type up a better response when I get home
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I am looking forward to reading what you will be adding, and i thank you and all others for replies that have been posted.
 
Have you seen Liam's investment in machinery (look at his instagram if you really want to know)? I don't think he has any problems needing easier to work steel, especially if we're talking about 5160 being a better option. I would like to know the cost difference in 4140 vs 5160. Beyond that the price has nothing to do with the performance. I could make an axe out of S90v (heck I saw a shovel made out of it) and it would cost a fortune...doesn't mean it would make a good axe.
The hardness statement, while not necessarily false, also seems out of place here since I"m pretty sure Hoffman says he hardens to 57ish and a quick search shows 4140 reaches 55. I've seen Gransfors mentioned as 1055 hardened to only 57 and I've never seen 5160 as harder than 56-58 and in the case of the Velvicut, which are well regarded, it's only 54-56 if I recall right. Just because people talk about vintage axes being higher carbon and harder w/o any real data on what the steel used is or what the RC values are doesn't mean they are right, especially if they haven't used an axe in 4140.

Here's the link to the 4140 for the Boy's Axe...it used to be on omahaknife's website too but they are no longer available: https://bushcraftusa.com/forum/threads/council-tool-boys-forest-service-axe-available-again.136057/

We can always talk about ideal, but to say an axe in 4140 is "passable" is just a false statement. It's far more than that, and the numbers and steel properties back that up along with people's reviews.

And for the record I think 52100 would make a less than ideal felling axe steel. It's low in toughness, particular in heat treat, and much more wear resistant (which serves little purpose in a striking tool that chops and pushes through wood) than 5160 and the like..which would make it much harder to deal with if it got edge damage and no power tools were available.
 
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Camber said:
I would like to know the cost difference in 4140 vs 5160. .
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It’s more availability in those sizes than price but 5160 last time I priced it was about 25-30% higher than 4140.. 4140 can be found in 1” and larger sizes at almost any online seller and many local steel yards. 5160 (in big sizes like 1”x2”)almost always has to be ordered from a distributor and that often entails large minimum orders. I’ve been ordering large high carbon steel for years it’s hard to find and it’s expensive..the toughest stuff I ever made an axe from was champaloy. L6, real l6 with .25% moly. It will air harden to near 60rc just cooling on the bench.. even with our hammer and press it took 3x as long to make.. then to grind it you had to do a spheroidal anneal in the kiln..
 
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Camber said:
Have you seen Liam's investment in machinery (look at his instagram if you really want to know)? I don't think he has any problems needing easier to work steel, especially if we're talking about 5160 being a better option. I would like to know the cost difference in 4140 vs 5160. Beyond that the price has nothing to do with the performance. I could make an axe out of S90v (heck I saw a shovel made out of it) and it would cost a fortune...doesn't mean it would make a good axe.
The hardness statement, while not necessarily false, also seems out of place here since I"m pretty sure Hoffman says he hardens to 57ish and I've seen Gransfors mentioned as 1055 hardened to 57 and I've never seen 5160 as harder than 56-58. Just because people talk about vintage axes being higher carbon and harder w/o any real data on what the steel used is or what the RC values are doesn't mean they are right, especially if they haven't used an axe in 4140.

Here's the link to the 4140 for the Boy's Axe...it used to be on omahaknife's website too but they are no longer available: https://bushcraftusa.com/forum/threads/council-tool-boys-forest-service-axe-available-again.136057/

We can always talk about ideal, but to say an axe in 4140 is "passable" is just a false statement. It's far more than that, and the numbers and steel properties back that up along with people's reviews.

And for the record I think 52100 would make a less than ideal felling axe steel. It's low in toughness, particular in heat treat, and much more wear resistant (which serves little purpose in a striking tool that chops and pushes through wood) than 5160 and the like..which would make it much harder to deal with if it got edge damage and no power tools were available.
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I 100% agree with you. An axe should be tough, so 4140 is one of the best options around, nothing to do with it being cheap or expensive.
 
Kentucky said:
It’s more availability in those sizes than price but 5160 last time I priced it was about 25-30% higher than 4140.. 4140 can be found in 1” and larger sizes at almost any online seller and many local steel yards. 5160 almost always has to be ordered from a distributor and that often entails large minimum orders. I’ve been ordering large high carbon steel for years it’s hard to find and it’s expensive..
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Thank you for the info. I do appreciate it. In the case of Liam Hoffman though, selling axes so many axes he had to cut orders, at prices from $250-$425, I still find it hard to believe though that the cost of 5160 would be the deal breaker. I find it more likely to believe he is getting good performance out of 4142. I could be wrong though. I really am just trying to think it through logically.
 
Camber said:
Thank you for the info. I do appreciate it. In the case of Liam Hoffman though, selling axes so many axes he had to cut orders, at prices from $250-$425, I still find it hard to believe though that the cost of 5160 would be the deal breaker. I find it more likely to believe he is getting good performance out of 4142. I could be wrong though. I really am just trying to think it through logically.
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I’ve no doubt he makes good axes from it and price is not a concern for him likely. I do think that for most smiths that availability is a big factor
 
That makes total sense.

I should clarify though that my argument isn't that 4140 makes a superior axe. I guess my position is simply that if the smith knows what he's doing, I think it's likely to be as good of a felling axe (hatchets are different...much less stress on them) as one made from 5160/1055/or even 1080 and that I think the end user would be hard pressed to tell the difference between them in use. And I feel the data and the reviews of axes made from it back it up. I think given a choice among all the steels the OP mentioned, I would encourage him more to talk to the smith and ask him about how he heat treats and his design as opposed to worrying about the steel itself.

And that's really all I have to say. I'm not looking to argue any more than I have or get into the mystique of vintage axes and their steel hardness / superiority.
 
Kentucky said:
I’ve no doubt he makes good axes from it and price is not a concern for him likely. I do think that for most smiths that availability is a big factor
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Am sure Hoffman want's to keep their quality really high, and to do this they must limit production, many other people after starting out slow with quality products, but they quickly see the money that can be made by pushing production this is where you notice customers complaining about the quality.
Now take a Company like Spyderco Gil knew by investing in CNC machines, and controlling his own heat treating, also have skilled crafts men doing the assembly along with really good quality control he can keep high production and quality of his knives in Golden Co.
Also i don't find any complaints about his China Mfg.ed knives.
 
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It's not simply a matter of what hardness is attainable by a given steel but how much toughness the steel retains at that hardness. A steel that hits 57RC as fully quenched may not have the toughness of a higher carbon steel that retains 57RC after 3 cycles at 550F.
 
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