Going to Skokie, IL

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Oct 3, 2008
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I'm heading to Skokie for a few days for work training. I read the other thread that is active and saw a mention of a 3" limit. Is this a set in stone law or is it ambiguious like michigan's (Intent to do harm...etc)? I'm aware of the stories of strict enforcement in NYC, is Chicago similar? Or if I have a Sebenza, or CQC-7 in my pocket and don't go acting like a fool will I not be bothered? It's bad enough that there is no reciprocity for concealed pistol license holders, but I'd hate to leave one of my favorite EDC tools at home.

Worst case scenario I'll pack a Kerambit..

Thanks
 
The 3" inch limit is a widely-held misconception. The only mention of a 3 inch limit is 720 ILCS 5/33A and this law is not a carry law: It only proscribes a more serious crime if, at the time you are committing a felony, you happened to be carrying such a knife.

The actual carry law (720 ILCS 5/24) is quite ambiguous and only makes it illegal to carry certain knives "with intent to use the same unlawfully against another." This could potentially be applied to any knife, but only if intent to illegally assault another person is present.

In case law, people carrying hunting knives have been found innocent because there is no length limit and their intent was not to use them against people, but to cut fish and such.

Chicago is an entirely different matter. City law has a hard blade length limit of 2.5 inches (2 inches for minors).
 
I've read the Chicago and IL laws back and forth and have just paid Mr. Levine for his opinion on such. AFAIK, glistam's opinion on IL law is correct, however two tweaks to the Chicago ordinances: 1. you cannot carry CONCEALED a knife with a blade larger than 2.5". 2. However, if you have a clip showing, the legnth laws are the same as IL.

I'll have to look this up again, I just read it on Wong's site for the Knife Laws for the 50 states that you cannot carry knives into bars or public assemblies, IIRC.

Another tweak: in Chicago, if you are a driver and about five other LEO/security related trades, on the job, you can carry pretty much whatever you please concealed, including firearms. I've had this double-checked with a lawyer (I'm a driver by trade but cannot carry b/c of my employer), but I think the lawyer didn't really do a great job, so I would have this triple checked by another lawyer.

As usual, I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, etc.
 
Oh, and I haven't received word from Mr. Levine just yet, so to be extra safe and anal retentive, I'm just carrying my mini-griptilian for now.
 
I'm aware of the stories of strict enforcement in NYC, is Chicago similar?

Despite the discussions on Chicago's draconian laws, the Chicago police and the general public tend to be pretty easy-going and lax on this, from my experience.

I assume you'll be staying out of Chicago proper on your trip here, since you'll be on expressways the whole time.

Or if I have a Sebenza, or CQC-7 in my pocket and don't go acting like a fool will I not be bothered?

Bingo! I can tell you that Skokie is an older community, with a mix of liberal and conservative. If you draw attention to your knife, some older person may panic and call the police. If you play it cool, you won't have anything to worry about.

By the way, some great Jewish delis in Skokie... if you like those giant sandwiches with the really, really fresh lunchmeat--you'll have a lot of fun. Otherwise, you're stuck with retail food at the mall. If you're stuck with the latter, ask someone to take you to Portillo's. And if you go to Portillo's, be sure to get the chocolate cake for dessert. It's indescribably good.
 
Also, there's a pizza place that is known for its gourmet level pan pizzas in that area. It was reviewed on Bourdains No Reservations. Pan pizza is real pizzas obese bastard stepson, but nevertheless, the chefs seem to do an outstanding job within the limitations of the material.

If you dare to venture into the city, I also really like Furuma's Dim Sum brunch on the weekends (til three I believe). They're on Broadway, just south of Argyle, park in the gated lot and be sure to lock up your vehicle, it's a poor neighborhood. Be sure to get the beef short ribs, they're outstanding. Also, Ethiopian Diamond is really good, Broadway, just north of Granville on the west side of the street.
 
Here is a portion of the IL statute.

§ 24-1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.

(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:

(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries any bludgeon, black-jack, slung-shot, sand-club, sand-bag, metal knuckles or other knuckle weapon regardless of its composition, throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas; or

(2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun or taser or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character; or

(3) Carries on or about his person or in any vehicle, a tear gas gun projector or bomb or any object containing noxious liquid gas or substance, other than an object containing a non-lethal noxious liquid gas or substance designed solely for personal defense carried by a person 18 years of age or older; or

(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode or fixed place of business any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, except that this subsection (a)(4) does not apply to or affect transportation of weapons that meet one of the following conditions.


Illinois State law does not require that knives be concealed in order to be a violation. The statute provides that dangerous knives are prohibited if one “carries or possession with the intent to use the same unlawfully against another.” The absence of the term “concealed in subsection 2 appears to be deliberate, as the legislature included the term “concealed” in subsection 4. Further, Illinois courts have provided little guidance regarding what is a “dangerous knife.” Rather the cases that do exist tend to focus on whether the individual possessed a knife with the intent to use illegally against another. Notable is People v. Sullivan, where the defendant was carrying a sheathed hunting knife (and I presume to be a fixed blade). The court held that:

The convictions for unlawful use of weapons required proof that the knives were carried or possessed ‘with intent to use the same unlawfully against another. The State argues that the requisite intent may be proved by the surrounding circumstances, citing People v. Shields, 6 Ill.2d 200, 205, 127 N.E.2d 440, where it was held that intent to murder can be inferred from the character, manner, and circumstances of an assault. We agree, of course, with the general proposition that criminal intent may be inferred from circumstantial factors. But the circumstances here do not reasonably establish intent to use the hunting knives against another. The State's position appears to be that no other theory can reasonably explain the possession of hunting knives late at night in a residential area. While the State's point that use of the knives for hunting purposes does not appear to have been the intent of the defendants, Jenkins and Dougherty, must be admitted, one cannot conclude from this that Jenkins and Dougherty intended unlawfully to use the knives against another. Were such a conclusion to be drawn it would be in effect a holding that the statute prohibited the carrying of a hunting knife for any purpose other than for the purpose of hunting. No prohibition exists; simple possession of a hunting knife is not criminal. The legislature has specifically named the weapons, the simple possession of which is Per se unlawful. Subsection (a)(1) of the unlawful use of weapons statute prohibits the possession of a switchblade knife, sawed-off shotgun, brass knuckles, blackjack, Etc., but as to a hunting knife proof of intent to use it unlawfully against another is essential. It is the proof of that intent, or circumstances from which such intent is reasonably inferable, that is missing here. Thus, affirming the convictions cannot be justified where the weapons are not contraband, and no evidence reasonably establishes an intent to use the weapons unlawfully against another.
 
I am posting separately the Chicago municipal code section regarding carrying dangerous weapons, which in part is very similar to state law, with the addition of the concealed limitation below. Here is the municipal code:

8-24-020 Carrying dangerous weapons.
No person shall sell, offer for sale, keep, possess, loan or give to any person any knife, the blade of which is released by a spring mechanism, including knives known as “switch-blades”, any blackjack, slingshot, sandclub, sandbag, metal knuckles or bludgeon. No person shall sell, offer for sale, loan or give to any person 18 years of age or under any type or kind of knife, any blade of which is two inches in length or longer.

No person shall sell, manufacture, purchase, possess or carry any weapon from which eight or more shots or bullets may be discharged by a single function of the firing device.

No person shall carry or possess any knife, the blade of which is released by a spring mechanism, including knives known as “switch-blades”, any blackjack, slingshot, sandclub, sandbag, metal knuckles or bludgeon.

No person 18 years of age or under shall carry or possess any knife, the blade of which is two inches in length or longer.

No person shall carry or possess with intent to use same unlawfully against another a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto or other dangerous or deadly weapon.

No person shall carry concealed on or about his person a pistol, revolver, derringer or other firearm or dagger, dirk, stiletto, bowie knife, commando knife, any blade of which is released by a spring mechanism, including knives known as “switch-blades” or any other type or kind of knife, any blade of which is more than two and one-half inches in length, ordinary razor or other dangerous weapon except that no person 18 years of age or under shall carry concealed on or about his person, any knife, the blade of which is two inches in length or longer. This provision shall not apply, however, to the following officers while engaged in the discharge of their official duties: sheriffs, coroners, constables, policemen or other duly constituted police officers and wardens, superintendents and keepers of prisons, penitentiaries, jails and other institutions for the detention of persons accused or convicted of crime; nor to the following employees or agents while engaged in the discharge of the duties of their employment: conductors, baggagemen, messengers, drivers, watchmen, special agents and policemen employed by railroads or express companies; nor to persons lawfully summoned by an officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace, while so engaged in assisting such officer.
Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be fined $200.00 for each offense, or shall be punished by imprisonment for a period of six months, or by both such fine and imprisonment.


AFAIK, glistam's opinion on IL law is correct, however two tweaks to the Chicago ordinances: 1. you cannot carry CONCEALED a knife with a blade larger than 2.5". 2. However, if you have a clip showing, the legnth laws are the same as IL.

A weapon is “concealed,” within meaning of statute proscribing the carrying of a firearm concealed in any vehicle even if there is some notice of its presence; all that is required is that weapon be concealed from ordinary observation. People v. Williams, 15 Ill.App.3d 823, 305 N.E.2d 186. A partially concealed weapon may in fact sufficient for a concealed weapons violation. So, a knife clipped to your pocket, partially concealed, may be a violation of the CCW law (assuming it is a prohibited knife). In other words, clipping a knife to your pocket does not provide absolute assurance that you are not in violation of the CCW law. On the other hand, a weapon that is in plain view cannot be concealed. An example would be of a knife clipped to a pocket with the knife outside of your pocket in plain view (assuming clothing is not obstructing plain view).

In the Williams case, the defendant was convicted of CCW with a partially concealed weapon. See discussion from the case:

On March 18, 1972, Police Officers O'Connor and Callahan responded to a radio call of a disturbance in the building at 4020 West Monroe Street in Chicago. Arriving at the scene, they immediately ascended to the second floor, where they observed a group of people gathered in the hallway, watching the defendant argue with a co-defendant, Melissa Minor. Ms. Minor was holding a large knife which she dropped, as soon as she saw the officers. Both officers testified that Ms. Williams was carrying a brown paper bag, in which there was a partially concealed sawed-off .22 caliber rifle. At trial the defendant testified that the gun was not in a bag, but that she had just retrieved it from her son, who was using the weapon to hit another child. The defendant had no license or registration for the gun. The officers testified that the gun was protruding from the top of the bag approximately four to five inches. When the officers asked her to hand over the rifle, a melee ensued, with each party giving a different version of the struggle, the details of which will not be discussed here, as the battery conviction is no longer an issue. The defendant was finally arrested, handcuffed and taken to the police station. She was tried and convicted of both offenses, and this appeal followed.

The first issue is whether the defendant is guilty of the charge of carrying a concealed weapon. Defendants argue that they were not guilty of carrying concealed weapons for the reason that there is no evidence to show the weapons were concealed; that, on the contrary, they were in full view of the officers when the officers opened the door. People v. Niemoth, 322 Ill. 51, 152 N.E. 537, is not controlling here. In that case we said, among other things, that there must be proof that a firearm is carried in such a manner as to give no notice of its presence. However, in that case the defendant was in the front seat of the car and the gun was on the floor of the rear seat. The decision there was based on the fact that the gun was not in such proximity to the accused as to be within easy reach and under his control. The statute . . . does not mean that the firearm shall be carried in such manner as to give absolutely no notice of its presence. It merely requires that the firearm shall be concealed from ordinary observation.

This case seems to be directly on point, while the case of People v. Crachy, 131 Ill.App.2d 402, 268 N.E.2d 467, which the defendant cites, is far removed from the facts of this case. A sawed-off rifle in a brown paper bag is hardly comparable to a man carrying an automatic pistol in the waistband of his trousers. While we agree that if the weapon had been readily observable, the conviction could not stand, we do not so view the facts in the case at bar. Defendant claims that the officer could determine that she had a gun immediately; however, they were in a small hallway, and his attention was particularly attracted to her, as a party to a disagreement, where her opposite number was wielding a large knife, which is an entirely different situation than if she had been merely walking down the street. Thus we conclude that, on the facts as presented to us, there was no reasonable doubt that the defendant was apprehended carrying a concealed weapon.
 
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jurisprudence, I am glad you addressed the pocket-clip issue so thoroughly and I concur that caution is definitely advised when doing that. It seems far too many people on here think the pocket-clip automatically skirts concealment. I know of several cases I have come across in other states (I check case-law too when I answer on this forum) wherein the police officer's ability to notice the knife was considered to be different than "common observation." The rationale was this was due to the officer's training/experience, and the officer's heightened awareness of the defendant as a result of their behavior.

That doesn't even being to cover the problematic situations wherein an officer does not know the weapon laws of his or her jurisdiction sufficiently, and makes an arrest anyway, even if it does not result in conviction. If such an officer never sees the knife, he or she has less opportunity to make this mistake in the first place.
 
So would I be correct in assuming that a stockman with a 3" blade carried in my pocket would be violating the concealed 2" limit and also violating the non-concealed 2.5" limit?

I'm inclined to think that just about any reasonable LEO wouldn't blink at a traditional slipjoint like that; it's about as far from "tactical" as you can get.

But it is the kind of thing that can turn a bad situation worse if you're already in trouble, or if the guy's a jerk and/or likes your knife.
 
So would I be correct in assuming that a stockman with a 3" blade carried in my pocket would be violating the concealed 2" limit and also violating the non-concealed 2.5" limit?

Are you under the age of 18? If you are, then the answer to your question is yes it would be a violation of the Chicago code to carry a 3'' blade. The code prohibits under age 18 from carrying any knife with more than a 2'' blade. Also, the CCW law restricts any person (regardless of age) from carrying a knife with more than a 2.5'' blade.
 
Are you under the age of 18? If you are, then the answer to your question is yes it would be a violation of the Chicago code to carry a 3'' blade. The code prohibits under age 18 from carrying any knife with more than a 2'' blade. Also, the CCW law restricts any person (regardless of age) from carrying a knife with more than a 2.5'' blade.

No, well over. I'm just trying to make sense of all these arbitrary numbers.
 
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