Golden blades

Joined
May 24, 2001
Messages
443
Dear Friends,

I want to post this intriguing question here as well.

I read in "The Persian Army" by Nicholas Sekunda, Osprey Series that the Persian King gave its kinmen a golden bladed akenakes or akinaka page 56. There is a beautiful example of this golden dagger or short sword depicted. Also a golden sheath.
Interesting enough you can even see the picture of a wooden scabbard of an akenakes displayed in the British Museum page 20.

I read in the book "Tutankhamun" that his golden dagger was also hardened, there is a beautiful picture of his dagger there and you can see it as well in Swords and Hilt Weapons page 11.

My questions:

1) How can you harden and temper gold? Is it possible?

2) How effective is gold as a blade?

3) Has anyone ever ordered a sword or knife with golden blade?

Regards,

Manoucher
 
To the best of my knowledge pure gold can't be hardened and would be useless as a blade. You could bend it with your bare hands and it wouldn't cut anything. If you made a gold alloy it could be hardened up some but I wouldn't think it would make a very good blade. The metal experts can elaborate.

We have done a few special orders with inlay of 24K gold but we don't like to mess with it.
 
Originally posted by Manoucher Moshtagh golden dagger or short sword depicted. Also a golden sheath.
1. If it really depicted gold, probably gold leaf. Or even gold sheathing for display only.

2. Gold is weigh heavy. .........:)

3. The storyteller / artist may have exaggerated the color.

4. A dagger or other small item might be made of gold purely as a gift to be shown and not used.

5. Perhaps brass/bronze. I'm too tired to think in terms of historic period metalurgy.

6. I've been playin with a brass-wire brush (power burnishing type) to lay down a layer of brass on a blade (chinese jian). Gives a nice transparent brass color to the steel. So far I just can't get it as even as I like.
 
James Bond...."

Wasn't there a movie? "Man with the Golden Khuk?" "Khukfinger?"

Chopity, chopity chop chop!

Anyone have a photo of the "Golden Girl?"
 
Gold alloy? In one of A. Bertram Chandler's Captain Grimes stories some monarch of El Dorado made a starship by gold alloy...

Sorry I couldn't connect this SF book to any khukuri topic.
 
"The Chitchas, or Muiscas (i.e. men), of Bogota, who knew only gold and ignored copper, tin, lead, and iron, made their weapons and tools of hard wood and stone." (Richard F. Burton, The Book of the Sword)
 
Ddean, use a brass hammer to smooth out the blade surface sometime. Interesting results, but I can't make it look right either. As to the gold knife, I can't see it working unless alloyed to make it harder the way rings are. Even then it wouldn't be much good compared to a bronze blade or iron.

Stephen
 
M.M.:

I have seen some of the egyptian gold knives, they have an egyptian one among some bronze ones in the Smithsonian in D.C. Probabaly contained a bronze core for durablilty and flex.

Apparently, you can temper copper and copper alloys, but these techniques have been all but lost. They involved hammer hardening, chemical hardening, etc. The Dene tribe of people from canada/alaska were good workers of metal, and forged copper weapons that exhibited folding, much like a Japanese smith would do w/ katana. They tempered these objects as well...

Keith
 
A knifemaker named Buster Warenski has made several solid gold knives one of which was a reproduction of the King Tut dagger. Obviously the gold knives he made were never meant to be used and are only art pieces. You might try contacting him as to any insights he may have on gold alloys and knives.

Just my personal opinion but the golden blades of antiquity were probably not ever meant to be used and were instead meant to be symbols of office or indicate the high favor of ones liege lord.

Cole
 
Dear keith

"Apparently, you can temper copper and copper alloys, but these techniques have been all but lost. They involved hammer hardening, chemical hardening, etc. The Dene tribe of people from canada/alaska were good workers of metal, and forged copper weapons that exhibited folding, much like a Japanese smith would do w/ katana. They tempered these objects as well... "

Could you give me more information on Dene Tribe from Canada, Alaska? What do ther weapons look like? Can I get some?

Regards,

Manoucher
 
Uncle Bill,

What about a small Ang Khola, very small like a lighter and with a hardened golden blade and with a nice Kothimoda sheath.

This will be a beautiful collector item. Let's estimate the price, if it is O.K. I am sure many will order it.

Regards,

Manoucher
 
Don't want to do it, Man. You have no idea how many problems arise when there is a considerable amount of 24K gold floating around the shop.
 
M.M:

The Dene tribe is one I read about in a book on Swords. They were pretty sparse with actual physical examples, leading me to believe they are very rare. These guys were collecting native copper in nuggets, then saving it all up, just to make a few blades. When iron and steel were imported to them, they used the same tech to make nice steel blades.

I do not think anyone could obtain these blades, and I do not think that they are being made currently. Any existing ones are in musuems or are revered tribal artifacts.

I'll see if i can find any more details on them.

Keith
 
Warenski is one of the top Master Smiths. His King Tut Dagger reproduction (made in gold as was the original - 32 oz!) sold for well north of six figures in 1997 - probably would be approaching 7 figures now. The thing is a real work of art.

I don't know if he is still taking orders. You can reach him at:
435-896-5319, but I wouldn't count on finding a Father's day present unless your name happens to be Bill Gates. He is definitely upscale/investment grade art knives. His going price tag will make Moran, Scagel, and Loveless look like Kmart blue light specials.

n2s
 
Wow, that's an awsome blade.
To the best of my knowledge, pure metal of any kind is relatively soft, iron, copper, gold, etc. What hardens it is having smaller atoms wedged in the matrix to prevent one plane of atoms from sliding pass another. Carbon wedges into iron, carbon+iron = steel. Addition of carbon also makes it possible for steel to exist indifferent phases, ferrite, peralite, martensite, bainite, spheroids, etc. Another thing that causes metal to strengthen is the presence of dislocations. Theses imperfections in the alignment of atoms also prevent slipping between rows of atoms. Forging, rolling, drawing or other method that causes dislocations also strengthen the metal. I don't know much about gold alloying, but I think nickel and silver are added to it to make it stronger and cheaper.

As for brass or bronze actaully, the strongest one I know of is beryllium bronze. It's very strong, but beryllium is toxic. Bronze can also be work hardened. One of the circus tricks was to have the strong man bend a brass or bonze rond around the neck, then challenge anyone to undo the bending. What actually happens is that during the bending, the bronze work hardened. It takes a much stronger force to undo the bending, the strong man himself can't do it. So what he does is after all the crowds are gone for the day, he anneals the bronze rod in a furnace, and straighten it for another day.
Maybe the bronze swordsman cold worked the edges by hammering. This is my engineering guess, anyone knows the history?
 
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