Golden vs Seki City S30V

[RedWolf4]

Hey Bladeforums, thinking about picking up a Chinook 4, just wondering how Spyderco's S30V out of Japan compares to that from Golden, Colorado.

Also any feedback from Chinook owners would be great

 

[SubMicron]

I've have not owned a Seki S30V however I wouldn't think twice about it... I think S30V is probably easier to work with than some of the other steels that they've mastered.

From Seki I have M390, ZDP-189, H1, and some K390 on pre-order.

I've seen a little bit of Rockwell hardness data for some of Seki's S30V and the HRC was where it's supposed to be.

 

[John_0917]

I would guess that the biggest challenge for Seki is actually the grinding. High vanadium steels are not that common in Japan, part of why ZDP was made with all chromium carbides is so it can be sharpened using the water stones that are so common in Japan. Grinding even high hardness carbon steels isn’t too bad, even fairly wear resistant tool steels like HAP40 aren’t that bad since their vanadium content isn’t that high.

Using a water stone to sharpen S30V will work but will take a long time, higher vanadium steels it’s borderline impractical.

 

[SubMicron]

M390 is also 4% Vanadium and K390 is 9% Vanadium. Both are more advanced and outperform S30V. I'm not a knife maker but I'd assume that these two steels are roughly at least as challenging to grind and work with in the factory as S30V.

With K390 being heat treated to a higher Rockwell than S30V, and with it having more than double the Vanadium, I'd assume that any post heat treat grinding would wear abrasives faster than S30V. I'd also assume that the bulk of stock removal happens before the heat treat on a CNC machine.

Again, I'm not a knife maker, so I might be wrong, but I dont think the Seki plant is operating with traditional methods. They've been working with powdered steels for awhile now.

 

[nephron]

Hey Bladeforums, thinking about picking up a Chinook 4, just wondering how Spyderco's S30V out of Japan compares to that from Golden, Colorado.

Also any feedback from Chinook owners would be great

I feel pretty confident in their quality control, I really doubt there is any appreciable difference, at least in my experience. I was thinking Sal might come in here.

 

[John_0917]

From the recent article on KSN, apparently one of the challenges with S30V is that it needs to go from furnace to quench especially quickly to turn out well. The origin of the alloy is drawn from S90V, 154CM/440C mainly...the point being to create a well balanced steel all around intended for knives. Doing the HT well is critical to make sure it forms mostly vanadium carbides and not chromium ones.

Since then, derivatives have come out in two forms:
S35VN has reduced wear resistance but better toughness and machine ability
S45VN has wear resistance equivalent to the original but with better corrosion resistance and toughness matching 35.

An interesting side note is that S30V has roughly twice as much Nitrogen as H1 (which is commonly mistermed as a nitrogen steel when it’s really not).

 

[SubMicron]

An interesting side note is that S30V has roughly twice as much Nitrogen as H1 (which is commonly mistermed as a nitrogen steel when it’s really not).

S30V has zero nitrogen and H1 actually is a nitrogen steel.

 

[John_0917]

S30V has zero nitrogen and H1 actually is a nitrogen steel.

View attachment 1323091

The nitrogen addition to S30V isn’t on some data sheets but has been identified by outside analysis, here’s an example from Larrin’s article (from his S45VN story). To get nitrogen this high, even in a CPM steel, it is intentional, “by catch” of N from the atomization doesn’t get it to 0.2%. There are a lot of incomplete data sheets out there, notably ZDP189, which shows only the major parts (C, Cr) and not the rest (W, Mo, S, Si).


Here’s the H1 story: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/06/24/h1-steel-how-it-works/

It explains that H1 is really an austenitic Cr/Ni steel that is cold rolled to form martensite and has very little C or N and minimal carbides to make it JUST hard enough for blade steel...which is probably why LC200N is replacing it.

It also goes into the falsity of “extreme edge hardness” and shows how a test done by Sandvik showed how the edges were actually softer.

 

[SubMicron]

My understanding is that the amounts of Nitrogen found in S30V are added intentionally or unintentionally afterwards.

Regardless... Due to the presence of Carbon in S30V, S35VN, etc... instead of forming Nitrides, the Nitrogen takes on a different role within the steel, and augments other aspects of the steel

Meanwhile with H1, due to it only having trace amounts of Carbon, the Nitrogen can form Nitrides. It's for this reason H1 is considered a Nitrogen Steel.

I recently purchased a Pacific Salt 2 in H1, have yet to put it through its paces, but based on initial testing, and feedback from freehand sharpening, it appears that it will do exactly what I need it to do. This will be an edge that meets cement during use. It's one task in life will be to survive the pier while salmon fishing.

*I'm not an expert, this is just my understanding of things.

 

[Larrin]

H1 doesn’t have a significant amount of nitrogen. Independent analysis found about 0.05%. The 0.1% in the spec is a maximum similar to other austenitic stainless steels. S30V has about 4x the nitrogen. S35VN averages a bit higher than 0.05% despite not having an intentional addition.

 

[SubMicron]

Wouldn't the Nitrogen that's in H1 be used for and transformed into Nitrides, thus causing it to not show up in scans in any meaningful quantity? Whereas in a Carbon steel, because the Nitrogen is not being transformed into Nitrides, still shows up in scans as Nitrogen?

Nitrogen is all around us and is hard to keep out of anything.

Also, aren't those percentages based on the physical weight contribution of the element within the alloy? In which case, because we're talking about Nitrogen, something like 0.05 or 0.1 percent, is actually a lot. This is the physical weight of a gas, relative to the weight of metal within the alloy.

Am I missing something?

 

[Larrin]

Wouldn't the Nitrogen that's in H1 be used for and transformed into Nitrides, thus causing it to not show up in scans in any meaningful quantity?

I don’t think H1 would contain any nitrides in its typical form as used for knives. But regardless, the composition testing involves combustion of the material so it doesn’t matter.

Whereas in a Carbon steel, because the Nitrogen is not being transformed into Nitrides, still shows up in scans as Nitrogen?

A carbon steel is not necessarily any less likely to form nitrides.

Nitrogen is all around us and is hard to keep out of anything.

Hence why there is 0.05% in the steel.

Also, aren't those percentages based on the physical weight contribution of the element within the alloy? In which case, because we're talking about Nitrogen, something like 0.05 or 0.1 percent, is actually a lot. This is the physical weight of a gas, relative to the weight of metal within the alloy.

The compositions are given in weight percent. Rather than think about “the weight of the gas” you want to think about the weight of the atom, ie molar mass. Both carbon and nitrogen are light elements which is why you only need 0.6% carbon to make a steel well over 60 Rc. Nitrogen has a similar effect to carbon. A 0.05% carbon or nitrogen steel would be quite low in knife steel terms.

Am I missing something?

Open-mindedness.

 

[SubMicron]

Open-mindedness.

This is the whole reason I've joined this forum. To learn. I appreciate your contribution to the conversation.

If the dynamics of nitrogen content in a steel made a meaningful difference in performance to the end user, why is it not specifically quantified and marketed?

I'm interested in and own different steels and want to know how and why they have the various properties that they do.

 

[John_0917]

This is the whole reason I've joined this forum. To learn. I appreciate your contribution to the conversation.

If the dynamics of nitrogen content in a steel made a meaningful difference in performance to the end user, why is it not specifically quantified and marketed?

I'm interested in and own different steels and want to know how and why they have the various properties that they do.

We are seeing the rise of nitrogen steels right now, both stainless and tool. There are some that do form nitrides, like LC200N (a few chromium) and Vanax (many vanadium) and some existing alloys being improved by nitrogen, like BD1N, that don’t.

One interesting new stainless PM steel coming is SPY27, which is a cobalt, nitrogen steel that has niobium as well in it.

 

[Larrin]

If the dynamics of nitrogen content in a steel made a meaningful difference in performance to the end user, why is it not specifically quantified and marketed?

There is a difference between quantifying and marketing. The steel company may quantify many attributes of a steel that are not marketed. They may not market them for many reasons, including: 1) they think the information is not valuable to the customer, 2) they think the customer does not want the information, 3) the information is a trade secret, etc. The S30V does not list any Mn or Si even though there is 0.5% of each in the steel. That is common among many of the Crucible steel datasheets. At the time of the release of S30V, being a "nitrogen steel" was not a marketable attribute in the same way it is right now. I don't know if they were also trying to keep the nitrogen addition secret to some extent.

 

[SubMicron]

Well Larrin, I appreciate your info. I've read many of your writings on this site and others, and I definitely do appreciate the knowledge you share.

I'm sure you can understand my frustration with the subject when the manufacturer doesn't even properly list what's in the steel.

All of this only reinforces my belief that the knife industry should kick S30V to the curb in favor newer and better EDC steels. Every aspect of S30V appears to be a relative PITA.

 

[John_0917]

Well Larrin, I appreciate your info. I've read many of your writings on this site and others, and I definitely do appreciate the knowledge you share.

I'm sure you can understand my frustration with the subject when the manufacturer doesn't even properly list what's in the steel.

All of this only reinforces my belief that the knife industry should kick S30V to the curb in favor newer and better EDC steels. Every aspect of S30V appears to be a relative PITA.

I wouldn’t be surprised if S30V and S35VN are discontinued in the next couple of years in favor of S45VN, it seems to have been developed to be a successor to both of them.

It’s worth noting, though, that Crucible is not a very well run company overall. They have been bankrupt at least once recently, also have labor issues and are into a lot more markets than blade steels that are effected by tariffs, the overall economy etc.

As far as other incorrect data sheets, the ZDP one is really bad; there was a discussion once about the steel and Sal mentioned that there was more than C and Cr in the steel...we learned later just HOW much more (a lot), Hitachi still doesn’t have an accurate data sheet published for it.

 

[Mark Spark]

Hey Bladeforums, thinking about picking up a Chinook 4, just wondering how Spyderco's S30V out of Japan compares to that from Golden, Colorado.

Also any feedback from Chinook owners would be great

I have a Chinook 4. It has some great attributes but I don’t recommend it. In the interest of time and space I’ll skip the good and hit the bad.
1. It is 0.030” behind the edge. Doesn’t matter how well you sharpen it, it will never cut well like that. Might be ok for self defense but still a disgrace.
2. Edge came 21 degrees one side, 25 the other. I cursed Seki city through hours of reprofiling just to get it down to 18/18.
3. If you try to flex the blade with your fingers you can see the handles spreading around the pivot. And the pivot is scrawny, no bigger than the other screws. Go find another knife that does that, I can’t. This ruins my confidence in it as a self defense tool.
4. The price is outrageous for what you get. 241$ for g10, s30v and a painted clip? You can get a Millie in some new exotic steel for a lot less.
5. Fit and finish is mediocre. A Tenacious is built better.
I say Avoid. The good things just increase my disappointment.

 

[SteelPanther]

I've always stuck to the golden made knives simply because I'm an American so that's what I do....however saw a good price on an endura today and couldn't pass on it...now I've been carrying a shaman in Rex 45 for awhile so was ready to laugh at this silly japanese vg10...yeah I was wrong....super slicey, deceptively sharp, perfectly centered...no complaints from me...now I see the qc from seki getting questioned here and there but I ain't got no issues with the endura....is it my USA made shaman no sir but its going to make me pick up a few more seki made spydies

 

[dan35]

The Seki knives have had an increase in quality lately. I picked up an Endura in ZDP-189 and an Endela SE. Both have great fit and finish. Perfectly centered and great action/lock up.