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Good books on knife forging I found
- Thread starter ddean
- Start date
Yes they are good books aren't they. He seems a real character.
I was particularly interested in his heat treating techniques, as he seems to get amazing results. They are extremely laborious however, so I'm afraid I still stick to differential tempering on my Knives.
I'd be interested to hear if any forumites have tried his techniques, and how successful they were.
Duncan
I was particularly interested in his heat treating techniques, as he seems to get amazing results. They are extremely laborious however, so I'm afraid I still stick to differential tempering on my Knives.
I'd be interested to hear if any forumites have tried his techniques, and how successful they were.
Duncan
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2002
- Messages
- 3,397
From Fowler's first K.T. book:
-------------------
RE survival knives:
To "get yourself out of a bind or make life easier in the wilderness."
"Bill [Moran] recommends a maximum weight of such knives at 1-1/2 pounds, blade lengths from 9 to 11 inches, and blades fully tapered to reduce weight & improve balance"
-------------------
Sounds like several HI blades & most the the 19th century khukuris.
Of course Moran is known for 'rediscovering' the convex edge
and having it named after him in the knife community.
Fowler further notes that Moran etches blades
for hamon & damascus pattern by immersing
them in Muriatic (dilute hydrochloric) acid
after they were polished.
-------------------
RE survival knives:
To "get yourself out of a bind or make life easier in the wilderness."
"Bill [Moran] recommends a maximum weight of such knives at 1-1/2 pounds, blade lengths from 9 to 11 inches, and blades fully tapered to reduce weight & improve balance"
-------------------
Sounds like several HI blades & most the the 19th century khukuris.
Of course Moran is known for 'rediscovering' the convex edge
and having it named after him in the knife community.
Fowler further notes that Moran etches blades
for hamon & damascus pattern by immersing
them in Muriatic (dilute hydrochloric) acid
after they were polished.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 50
While all three are good ...and all are good smiths as well. Jim's book is a far broader read. He has three books by the way. But he covers multiple steels, forging, grinding, tempering, patterning- the list is too long. His series of books go from the basics to advanced. For best overal material coverage he wins.
Wayne is a man of the highest calibur with a profound personal knowledge of smithing AND grinding with a plethera of steels. There are not many of us who have used all, most or even just many- of the steels available and spent the money and time to learn to use them.
Ed is newer to the game. And for the most most part has less experience in the broader field. But make no mistake he does what he does very well. The complexity of Eds hardening/tempering is due to the fact that he uses 52100. It is a very exacting steel to get the most out of. Once done it is great stuff. Ed has spent considerable time researching his methods to get the best resutls from this finniky steel. Ed differentially tempers in oil by the way-it is part of his process. He does it by rolling the blade edge in oil. It makes an all together blah temper line not a hamon.
Hamon
The activities that one would deisre in a hamon can only be brought out by quenching in water not oil. It is the rapidity of the quench that that makes the hard transition zone lock in, Thus preservng the delicate granular structure you strived for. Oils make an obscure, diffuse temper line due to the slow transformation rate at which the the martensite forms.
Done correctly the former is only a cosmetic improvement over the later anyway but I love the look-there is no mechanical or performance improvement to be had. Once you know them they become rather addicting so an oil temperline just doesn't cut it anymore. It only a trade thang though-most would not care.
For interest I should mention that steel requires soaking at temperature. Then a full and rapid quench. The immersion brings about a full martensitic transformation in the entire thickness of the blade. The result of the soak and the full quench brings about a uniform grain structure and an even transformation, without surface hardening (this reveals itself in time as the hard edge is sharpened over the years), soft spots and potential cracking and blade failure. A normalizing soak is done by many smiths. In fact most do two or three prior to hardening. This procedure ensures a small uniform grain, providing the forging and temp control was done correctly.
Cheers
Dan
Wayne is a man of the highest calibur with a profound personal knowledge of smithing AND grinding with a plethera of steels. There are not many of us who have used all, most or even just many- of the steels available and spent the money and time to learn to use them.
Ed is newer to the game. And for the most most part has less experience in the broader field. But make no mistake he does what he does very well. The complexity of Eds hardening/tempering is due to the fact that he uses 52100. It is a very exacting steel to get the most out of. Once done it is great stuff. Ed has spent considerable time researching his methods to get the best resutls from this finniky steel. Ed differentially tempers in oil by the way-it is part of his process. He does it by rolling the blade edge in oil. It makes an all together blah temper line not a hamon.
Hamon
The activities that one would deisre in a hamon can only be brought out by quenching in water not oil. It is the rapidity of the quench that that makes the hard transition zone lock in, Thus preservng the delicate granular structure you strived for. Oils make an obscure, diffuse temper line due to the slow transformation rate at which the the martensite forms.
Done correctly the former is only a cosmetic improvement over the later anyway but I love the look-there is no mechanical or performance improvement to be had. Once you know them they become rather addicting so an oil temperline just doesn't cut it anymore. It only a trade thang though-most would not care.
For interest I should mention that steel requires soaking at temperature. Then a full and rapid quench. The immersion brings about a full martensitic transformation in the entire thickness of the blade. The result of the soak and the full quench brings about a uniform grain structure and an even transformation, without surface hardening (this reveals itself in time as the hard edge is sharpened over the years), soft spots and potential cracking and blade failure. A normalizing soak is done by many smiths. In fact most do two or three prior to hardening. This procedure ensures a small uniform grain, providing the forging and temp control was done correctly.
Cheers
Dan
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2002
- Messages
- 3,397
Thanks for the summary Dan.
In Knife Talk the author often talks about 5160 ("our" steel)
and 52100 as being treated very much the same.
I still plan to post a few sentences that
cover points sometimes discussed here.
Especially RE edge carbon & forging temp.
In Knife Talk the author often talks about 5160 ("our" steel)
and 52100 as being treated very much the same.
I still plan to post a few sentences that
cover points sometimes discussed here.
Especially RE edge carbon & forging temp.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 50
Hey ya Dean
Those would be good topics to cover. The edge-carbon question is _very_ easy to fix but ya have to know and care....eh? I will refrain from posting much about these topics until you do. Most of what you are going to bring here is a consensus from us American smiths who freely share information and research. What I mean is that what you are reading has, for the most part, been gone over and agreed to by other smiths behind the scenes before it saw the light of day. As such-for those reading-it is almost always guaranteed to be good stuff.
5160 is a simple carbon steel (springs) and easy to heat treat.
cheers
Dan
Those would be good topics to cover. The edge-carbon question is _very_ easy to fix but ya have to know and care....eh? I will refrain from posting much about these topics until you do. Most of what you are going to bring here is a consensus from us American smiths who freely share information and research. What I mean is that what you are reading has, for the most part, been gone over and agreed to by other smiths behind the scenes before it saw the light of day. As such-for those reading-it is almost always guaranteed to be good stuff.
5160 is a simple carbon steel (springs) and easy to heat treat.
cheers
Dan
I think the good kamis care.