Good news - new maker's stamp; Bad news...

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Feb 28, 2009
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On Monday I received my new name and material stamps from Evers and I couldn't wait to try them out. I finally got to do so yesterday and rather than follow the good advice I've seen here before (to try them out on a scrap piece of steel), I went straight to a desk knife I've been working on and calamity ensued.

Rather than use a hammer, I used a small hydraulic press. It has a force gage that shows up to 10,000 lbs. I wasn't sure what force would be required, so I figured I'd just eyeball it. Unfortunately, at 2,000 lbs, I heard a ping. In retrospect, 1,000 lbs would probably have been sufficient.

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First off, I think the stamps themselves are superb. I'm really pleased with how they turned out, especially given the length of my last name and the space I asked them to stay within. I ordered them on 12/14 and received them 12/27. Not bad considering we had Christmas in the middle.

Back to the situation at hand, I think there were a couple of problems here. The first and most obvious is using too much pressure, I think. Secondly, I think I placed my name stamp, which I stamped first, too close to the choil. Without using too much pressure though, I don't think that would have been anything more than a cosmetic issue. Note that the choil looks kind of jagged in the pictures. There was actually a nice radius that the photos didn't capture. The plunge was a straight line, but the crack opening up distorted that.

Lastly, I didn't use the best support for the blade. If you look closely at the second picture (showing the material stamp), you can see some surface irregularities directly above the stamp. These were from using an imperfect support plate that had a spotty surface. Again, not sure how much of an issue this would have been without using too much pressure.

The saddest part is that with the press, I could have stopped at any time to survey progress. Instead, I relied upon my perspective of how far the stamp was pressing into the blade. Bad idea obviously. Again, in retrospect I think that the stamp doesn't need to press far into the blade in order to make a good mark. In fact, I think it sort of blurred the stamp of my name because I tried to press too far. The 'CPM154' is much crisper in my opinion.

So, lessons learned here are to test on a scrap piece of metal first, not use too much pressure, place your stamp an appropriate distance from anything that could result in a stress concentration during stamping and to use a good support with a smooth face.

These are simply my observations as a newb, so if I'm off base, I'd like to hear from you seasoned stamping pros out there. Fortunately, my stamps were not damaged during this exercise and I already have another pair of desk knives in process. This time around, I think I'll stamp them before I spend a couple hours hand sanding the blades (this one looks like crap because I quickly hit the bevels with some 120 grit to get rid of the light discoloration after HT). I went ahead and heat treated this one to use as a desk knife myself. It will serve as a reminder of all the lessons learned above and any more I learn as a result of this thread.
 
Aaaa. Damnit! Thats rough JC. Nice stamps though. Show your setup please!

Anybody stamp into the spine rather than on the flats?
 
I would avoid stamping the same spot on both sides if you are cold stamping. The amount of deformation and stress that is evident from those stamps is bad news.
 
I have been using the same Evers stamp for about 22 years. Prior to HT I do my stamping. I heat the area of the blade on the tang to a cherry red with a torch. Then strike the stamp using moderate but not heavy force using a 16 oz hammer.

Hold the stamp in visegrips level on the knife, prior to striking.

You get only one chance at this and do it only when fully allert or else the result will not be even on the blade- that is the drawback with this process.

Don't strike the stamp on cold or hardened steel, the stamp will mushroom after only a few uses. By heating the steel you want to stamp will make the stamp last a very long time.
 
Nice stamps. You must be planning on using a lot of CPM154, huh? It's a shame about your blade- I screw up fairly often and have to tell myself each time that it's how you become a better maker. I try not to make the same mistakes twice. I'm sure you won't either.

I have a lock-side framelock scale I'm hanging above my workbench as a reminder of how I screwed it up.

I noticed that your name stamp looks like it stamped more deeply at the edges, it's nice and crisp in the middle. Perhaps the ricasso surface or the surface of the press die was uneven there, the pressure causing the ricasso to bow a bit and thus the crack originating at the choil and striking through nearly the middle of the name stamp.

Funny how the spell check here doesn't recognize the words "choil" and "ricasso"...
 
I think this goes along the lines of what a seasoned maker warned me about creating a stress area on the blade! I am not experienced enough to really judge this issue but I can see literally from your picture enough to get the idea of a stress factor. Had the blade not borken at this point in time it would have had an area that would have been a time bomb for breaking becuase of the stress that the area had endoured!

I would suggest that maybe the best time to stamp a blade would be in the annealed state and before normalizing. That way any stress caused by stamping should be lessened or done away with by the normalizing process, as are the stresses created by forging or even by grinding on a reduction blade.

This is borrowed from The Knife Network and Ed Caffrey's Workshop:


The definition in the book then goes on to state the purpose of normalization is to refine the grain structure and relieve stress. I do three stress relieving heats at a dull red color and still magnetic to relieve stress and make sure my grain is as small as possible. This is sometimes called by others (and occasionally, myself) as normalizing. I know for a fact that dull red can repair previously enlarged grain and is nowhere close to critical temp. So why would someone want to normalize in the true and technical sense of the word and risk grain growth?
The entire thread can be seen here:
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54417


You can also refer to this thread where I asked about stamping a blade! There is some good info in it.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=784692&highlight=anyone+use+one+of+these
 
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Hey Andy - I think I've seen some of Rick Marchand's work where he stamped it on the spine, but I could be mistaken. Yeah, it sucks, but you live and you learn. I'll get a pick of the press setup either tomorrow or Monday.

Hey Justin - Yes, I'm cold stamping. From many of the blades I've seen, it looks like people have stamped in the same location on opposite sides of the blade. The crack did open slightly when I stamped 'CPM154', but I don't think it would have done anything if I hadn't used too much pressure on the first side.

Hello Bufford - Thanks for your response. I did a fair amount of research here prior to ordering from Evers. It seemed that if you're pressing, then doing it cold is the way to go. I don't think I have the nerves to do it hot and with a hammer.

Hi Salem - Yes, I plan to use CPM154 almost exclusively for slip joints. Eventually, I'd like to do some forging with W2 and 5160. I took a break from the slip joints I have in process to make this desk knife. I think the differences you noticed in the stamp are due to the poor support I had for the blade.

Hello Dixie - I've read that thread several times actually. It is part of what pushed me over the edge to buy the stamps.
 
I'm guessing but... I believe you had already heat treated this blade, making it harder and more susceptible to breaking and,...

...perhaps the way the choil was made contributed to a fracture starting there, especially if it was a sharp angle rather than a rounded choil.

I hope others with more experience could yea or nea these guesses.

LonePine
AKA Paul Meske, Wisconsin
 
This is from your orgional post:
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Back to the situation at hand, I think there were a couple of problems here.
Lastly, I didn't use the best support for the blade. If you look closely at the second picture (showing the material stamp), you can see some surface irregularities directly above the stamp. These were from using an imperfect support plate that had a spotty surface. Again, not sure how much of an issue this would have been without using too much pressure.]

I suspect that the non support could have been more of an issue than you give it credit for and the amount of pressure major issue but I think you already know that.

Now my last observation and this one is going to be a controversial one. The place it broke is at the choil. I know a lot of makers use choils! However a choil on a knife to me is asking for a weak spot on a blade like this one. The rounding of the choil is OK but it dies into a squared off riccaso which drops down 90* from that to create a weak spot in the blade.

One thing I was told when I first was getting started that any place that you make a reduction on the blade such as fitting a guard should not be cut square, but rounding to reduce stress in the given area. The kicker to that is the handle usually reduces behind that point where you round in for the guard and therefore there is no stress point created!

So using that philosophy, with the choil yours is not rounding it is more of a V! Irregardless, if the choil dies into a squared off 90* area you are asking for a weak spot in the blade in my opinion!
This one of those live and learn things. Sometimes you got to laugh or you end up crying! :eek::):D
 
This is what I was going to point out. The crack emanates from the choil area. Whether it was rounded or not there was a weak point in that spot. This only goes to show 2 things to me. One there had to be a stress riser, either a heavy scratch or the intersection of the plunge lines and the choil. 2. The stamp caused stresses that even though may not have been evident, would have been present unless the blade had been normalized or annealed after the stamp. Even then the stresses may have been there for a potential problem in the future. I did all my stamping hot and annealed after the stamp and before the HT. Also make sure your back-up plate is flat and hard enough to withstand the pressure.
 
I'm in agreement with what was said about stress risers. Thats got to be a pretty classic example.
Ken.
 
So is the general concensus that the culmination of all of these issues (proximity of stamp to choil, choil shape, improper support during stamping and too much pressure) caused the crack?

I agree that choil shape and plunge lines can cause stress risers, but if there is never sufficient load placed on the part to exceed the ultimate strength of the material, you shouldn't get a failure.

Based on the responses, I'm thinking all conditions were right for the failure seen and that the excessive stamping pressure merely pushed things over the top. Perhaps next time I should stamp before I put in the choil. Or will simply placing the stamp further away, combined with lighter pressure and a more generous radius within the choil be sufficient? A better support is definitely in order regardless. For reference, I do a normalizing step as part of my heat treat.
 
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