Good ole canisters

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Badmouthblacksmith

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Sep 3, 2016
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Alright so I have made 3 canisters so far and none of them have had a single bar without cracks and complete seperations. Does anyone know how i can get a full good bar of canister damascus. I am using 3/4" wide square tubing, 52100 ball bearings 1084 powdered steel, and my forge is plenty hot i am geting forge welded bars but with tons of cracks and inclusions. Also the whiteout trick is only half working. Help.
 
How are you reducing and compacting the canister?

I would chuck the ball bearings and use flat bars forged from the races. It takes a good effort to get the 1084 powder perfectly distributed in every void between bearings.

If you are going to try the ball bearing again, make sure you vibrate the heck out of the canister before pressing down the end plug and welding it up. A few taps with a hammer won't do it.

Other may chime in, but my take is that you just grind away the canister once the billet is solid. White out is likely to fail, and may cause problems in the billet. The only thing that sort of works is slipping a strip of stainless HT foil on all the sides of a billet of bars.
 
Just a hammer and anvil. Also would it be better if i use a larger diameter tube like 1" or 1 1/4"? Also why is the whiteout likely to fail?
 
If white out is likely to fail can you use a good quality artest zinc white rather than white out ? I am just wondering because a good quality artest paint high in pigment (zinc) may be a better choice and you can get a large tube of zinc white for around 20 US dollars. Or you can get the ground powder zinc white and mix it your self. The better the quality of paint the stronger or more pigment is in there. Also not sure if it matters but I don't think I would use the oil paints though. Although it contains usually linseed,walnut,poppy seed oils and also a bit of mineral spirits sometimes. A couple of good quality brands of Dry pigment is Gamblin zinc white oxide 113g for 7.16 US at DickBlick.com or Sennelier zinc white 110g for 16.50 US. I hope I am not confused with the white out but I thought that the active ingredient that helped with the canister not sticking was the zinc. So I thought I'd put my 2 cents in on the artest paints due to the fact that the zinc content is much higher if not pure and you get more bang for your buck permitted it works of course....
 
A hammer and anvil is a hard way to do canister damascus. The whiteout will get knocked off in the forging steps unless the canister is filled with flat bars. Also, small pieces of the whiteout could migrate into the bearings and make places that will never weld.

The best way to keep the billet from welding to the case is to wrap the bundle with stainless foil, but that won't work for your ball bearing billet. I would really suggest you team up with a smith with a press or hammer. Even a simple press built from HF air-over hydraulic unit will work for compressing a canister.

If you are doing a canister billet by hand, I think you really need a striker with an 8 to 12 pound sledge. You hit with your 3-4# hammer and he follows with the sledge. Once you get the rhythm down, it is amazingly efficient. Sam Salvati and his crew are the champs for team working a big billet down. We worked down a billet with two strikers and a main smith, plus a tong holder (me).

Also, the whole billet has to be fully soaked at welding temp. The outside will get there a long time before the center does. Soaks of 10-15 minutes at weld heat are needed. If not, there will be voids and cracks all through the bar when done.
 
Thank you. Sorry to bother you some more but i have a few more questions. So I know about the whole deal for a striker all but that may not be accessible, but im not using a verry wide peice of tubing only 3/4 of an inch with 1/16 (I believe) thick walls. Would going up in tube diameter possibly change the outcome to more positive if I still keep it small right around 1 in. or 1 1/4 in. In diameter. Would that help with better cohesion of the meatls? Another problem i believe is soak time I can change that but does it need to soak that long every heat? The problem isnt forge welding it is odd areas not welding together vertically so i open it up and its like there was an inhibitor that didnt allow a section to weld to the one bellow it.
 
When you say "tube" do you mean round tubing??? If so, that is your problem. Without squaring dies and a press, trying to forge a round tube into a solid billet would be like herding cats.
 
I haven't tried the ball bearing and powder recipe, so far have only done chain and powder. It's my understanding that you need about 50-60% reduction to close any voids up, maybe less with ball bearings. I start with 3" square tubing I make from 1/4" flat bar, much thinner and I get blow outs during forging, and forge down with the hydraulic press. I would not want to try and do a canister weld without a press or at least a power hammer.

If your getting area's that are not welding, it could be several things, lack of soak time at welding heat comes to mind. I also leave a small pin hole when I weld the cap on to let any volatiles outgas and burn off. I haven't tried the whiteout trick, that may be causing some problems, but I've seen others use it with no issue and have been wanting to try it myself. Also, how clean is the ball bearings your using? First canister weld I did was 1084 powder and damascus drop offs and I left them pretty dirty, it welded up but the ends were full of crap and had to be discarded.
 
Ive done the pin hole eaach time it works as it should. I get what you all are saying about the power hammer or press but again I am not doing near as large a canister mine was 3/4 of an inch not 2 or 3 inches so hand hammering is not as hard. Ive seen it done and read about it being done fine hand hammerimg with a smaller can. But the cleanliness is a good point I'll soak the metal in some vinegar tonight. And i am using castoff damascus now just the peices from the previous canisters. Any advice on that? Also i think another problem is i havent welded the plug in the canister its been on the outside ao im going to try welding it inside this time cause the last few times its poped out before I was done reducing. So tomorrow (wednesday ) I'm going Going to try again with a slightly wider canister and just more soak time and heat time. Is there any possible use for borax inside or outside the container? Through all my research I've found no one say anything either way. And Im guessing just dont use whiteout this time and see how it turns out.
 
The point of a canister weld is no oxygen ... which is why there is no flux needed or wanted. Flux would be trapped and make big trouble.
 
One thing I forgot that may be giving you issues, how clean is the inside of the can? Doesn't have to be super clean but I'd knock any loose rust off. After welding my cans up I chip the welds and rinse with diesel fuel, another reason I leave a pin hole for the burning diesel residue to escape. Also, I place the cap down inside the can and smack it tight before welding, the less open space the better. Also, are you reducing all directions? What I mean is to forge on all sides? Just flattening may give you less than perfect welds on the edges.
 
I am reducing from all four sides. Also what do you mean by chip the welds? As for something flamable in the can i usually put a peice of paper in the bottom.
 
I want to thank you all for the advice and help. Today i used a 1 inch peice of tubing and no whiteout and lots of heat tons acctually and it went beautifully. I had one hicup but it was fine and the rest of the billet was ok. There was one area toward the top that i think bent to far and develped a crack and came off but even that small area is usable. Thanks again yall.
 
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