got my BF Native back

[Outlaw_Dogboy]

I want to say thanks to Sal, Vince, Angela, and whoever else behind the scenes that helped me with my ... 'concerns' ... with my BF Native. They checked the hardness (turned out right on the money at 55.5-56 Rc), checked the edge angle, sharpened it right back up to factory standards (WOW! It's actually sharper than it came in the first time!), and put a new clip on it! I had taken the old one off because I didn't want to mess up the blue enamel, and replaced it with the standard SS from the ltwt. I asked for a new ss clip (offering to send payment) so I could have one on both my ltwt and the BFN, still saving the blue enamel clip. Instead, they put a new blue one on my BFN (even better!!) before they returned it.
THANKS SPYDERCO! YOU GUYS ARE THE BEST!!! You can rest assured that your knives are still being added to my collection. First rate company and first rate customer service!!

OH! And I almost forgot: Thanks for the Element of Tables/Steel Chart card!!!
------------------
It's just a ****ing staple!
Outlaw_Dogboy, Pax River NAS, Republik of Marilundt


[This message has been edited by Outlaw_Dogboy (edited 18 November 1999).]

 

[Clay Kesting]

OD,

Glad to hear your baby has returned to you safely. My Junior (Wegner that is) is flying across the Pacific Ocean at this very moment. It is the first time he has travelled by himself so I am very concerned for his safety. I'll be very pleased when he "touches down" in Golden

.

------------------
Take care,
Clay

Don't worry that the world might end tomorrow....in Australia it's tomorrow already.

 

[Outlaw_Dogboy]

Of this you can be certain: he will be well taken care of in Golden, CO.

------------------
It's just a ****ing staple!
Outlaw_Dogboy, Pax River NAS, Republik of Marilundt

 

[db]

So,,,,,,. I don't get it. Should a 440v blade be able to take a hit from a thin soft staple, found on a mag, or what?

 

[Outlaw_Dogboy]

Ooooh, I was afraid someone wouldn't forget. Well, actually, I guess I wasn't too afraid; otherwise, I would have deleted that signature file, wouldn't I? Oops.
Anyway, I guess that it shouldn't. The blade checked out at the hardness that it was supposed to. The edge angle? Well, I never heard anything else back on that. They sharpened it up (like I mentioned above), sharper than it originally came from BladeForums. I mean, it is wicked sharp; that's the only way I can describe it. They may have altered the edge angle. I don't know. I don't want to start trying to cut staples again until at least this edge wears off a little. Hopefully, that will be a long while. Actually, I don't want to start trying to cut staples again anyway; it was an accident to start with.
So, back to your original question. I can only assume that the CPM-440V is not the recommended choice of steels when dealing with attacking, ornery magazine staples. I have not, and don't plan to, test the 440V directly against the 420HC a la Buck(or 440A, possible, as the particular Buck in question is a bit 'old in the tooth') that I used in my example. I can tell you that the 440V will get much sharper than any ATS-34 or ATS-55, in my hands, and hold the edge at least as long. Maybe that is the secret of the 440V; extreme sharpness AND extreme edge holding, AND reasonable corrosion resistance, unlike 1095, 52100, or M2. I do like the 440V. Much better than ATS-34 and ATS-55. Enough that I have bought a Military, and plan to buy a Starmate, possibly. Or maybe hold out waiting for the smaller version. Or maybe get another BF Native, if they last for a little while longer... or maybe the ltwt Native in 440V, when it comes out... or maybe....

------------------
It's just a ****ing staple!
Outlaw_Dogboy, Pax River NAS, Republik of Marilundt

 

[db]

Longer edge holding? That seems a little crazy to me if it can only cut paper or tissue.

 

[Outlaw_Dogboy]

Well... it will also cut cardboard, wood, various food-stuffs, plastic (as in soda bottles), synthetic/nylon rope, string. I used it on all of those things before I sent it in, and it would hold the same edge that it started out with (ie, sharper than ATS-34) pretty good. I once opened up one of those Guiness Tap cans with it, cutting around the side (not the top or bottom), and it didn't lose a noticeable amount of edge. It stopped it from shaving, but it would still scrape hair. But, like I have said, one hit on a staple (magazine size), there was quite a bit (IMO) of edge rolling. Enough to make a niticeable nick in the blade. In fact, looking at blade now, it appears that there was a bit of loss of metal near the tip when Spyderco sharpened it; I'm assuming that was getting the edge uniform all the way out to the tip, where it had hit the staple. I say that there was a bit of tip not gone mostly because the grind line, between the back swedge and the hollow portion of the grind, no longer lines up right on the tip, but is a little below it. I doin't remember it being this way before.
Anyway, back to the edge holding. I mentioned the aluminum can above. And that the Native would still scrape hair. Well, I did a similar thing with my Nimravus Cub: I needed to 'destroy'

a coupld of paint cans, set for disposal. So, I punctured the top of the cans with the Nimravus, piercing the top with about the first 3/4 inch of the blade. Afterward, I tried just for grins, to shave some arm hair with that portion of the blade. Well, it wouldn't "shave," but it would scrape hair, similar to the Native. One thing to note, though. The 'primary' (?, the edge) grind on the Cub is a quite larger included angle, so that probably helped it.
Anyway, like I said, I like the 440V, and would highly recommend the BF Native to anyone. Sorry that took so long, but if you have any more questions, or if I'm still not being logical, please say so; I'll re-examine what I'm saying/thinking.

------------------
It's just a ****ing staple!
Outlaw_Dogboy, Pax River NAS, Republik of Marilundt

 

[db]

Help.. Now I am really confused. It could cut up a can but the staple would indent the edge? Was this a staple from hell? Most staples I have seen are very thin and soft.
I just cut a staple with my Calypso, VG10 factory edge, and there was no damage at all that I could find.

PS Thanks for all of your reports on this. And I also like dark beer.

[This message has been edited by db (edited 18 November 1999).]

 

[Outlaw_Dogboy]

The M2 Nimravus Cub would cut the paint can, or at least the top.
The BFN was just cutting the thin aluminum side of the Guiness can. The staple that I nicked was apparently something more than aluminum (?), and it was definitely thicker than the aluminum can (although the thickness shouldn't make a lot of difference, I don't guess).
By reference, my ATS-34 Ascent and Axis knives will do the same thing to the aluminum can, with similar shaving/scraping afterward. Haven't had the 'pleasure'

of trying to cut the staple with the ATS-34, although I just might try that with the ascent, either tonight or over the weekend.

Guiness... definitely a "good thing", eh?

------------------
It's just a ****ing staple!
Outlaw_Dogboy, Pax River NAS, Republik of Marilundt

 

[Bearlegs]

A little off-topic, I know, but I must commend you on your fine taste for Guinness! My favorite, too!

------------------
Chris Turner
Arkansas

"We Don't Rent Pigs" --Augustus McCrae

"I won't abide rude behavior in a man." -- Woodrow Call

 

[Longden]

OD and db, you may want to catch Jeff Clark's post in the general forum on "improvised resharpening techniques" before it drops too far off.

The discussion went around how to resharpen a knife with available things at hand. The impetus was Jeff's mangling of his SAK Adventurer 420HC steel blade while cutting cardboard and hitting a ****ing staple (to quote OD).

Maybe hi-tech knives should come with a "no staples" sticker affixed to the blade

I think it comes down to mating the steel with the appropriate edge thickness, with the purpose.

For lots of paper and light cutting, 440V seems to cut well and hold out against wearing away, but can't tolerate impacts well. Maybe for anticipated impacts, it's better to leave the 440V edge a bit on the thick side?

Anyone know what kind of steel takes impact well? My guess is that it'll probably trade off in another area...like maybe it wears away (abrades) more quickly than 440V... or chip as opposed to rolling.

 

[Outlaw_Dogboy]

You guys should try the Guinness in the UK, if you get over there. Or maybe you're already over there. Clay, I assume you're in Australia. Do you guys drink Guinness 'down under'? Probably have stuff even better, eh? (Oops, that's Canadian, isn't it; I think I better shut up about beer/bier/bee-uh before I stick my other foot in my mouth

)

Anyway, what Longden is saying is probably right on with the 440V, at least in the Native grind. It's just not ... designed... to take impact with staples. Of course, that was not, and is not, my intention. Even with my old Buck's, I didn't intend to hit the staples, it just did. And didn't seem to mind it too much. I guess Buck makes their 420HC harder than Victorinox? I'll have to go catch that thread.

I didn't get a chance to try out the staple with the Ascent last night. Based on someone else hammering a few ATS-34 blades through a metal coat hanger, I am thinking that the ATS-34, or ATS-55, will probably shrug off the impact with a staple. I'm also thinking that my Nimravus Cub would, too.

Oh, and on the Calypso Jr. LtWt... {oops, just re-read through this thread, and see that db cut the staple with a Calypso, implying the big one I guess} I am thinking if that is hardened to the same degree as the Calypso (59-60), or the Moran (60-62), it should go through the staple easily.

------------------
It's just a ****ing staple!
Outlaw_Dogboy, Pax River NAS, Republik of Marilundt



[This message has been edited by Outlaw_Dogboy (edited 19 November 1999).]

 

[Longden]

OD:

Based on someone else hammering a few ATS-34 blades through a metal coat hanger, I am thinking that the ATS-34, or ATS-55, will probably shrug off the impact with a staple.

But what kind of edge was on the ATS-34? If the edge was thick to begin with, then there's more metal behind the edge, and hence it's stronger. The ideal would be to sharpen identical blades of 440V and ATS-34 to identical edge grinds, and then test.

Some remarks had been made before on other threads that Benchmade grinds their edges on the thick side. I don't know about your old Buck, but it may have been true for that also. SAKs tend to be pretty thin blades, and all of mine have been great push-cutters, which leads me to believe SAKs may have a very narrow edge angle also, which may account for their handling of staples.

I used a laser pointer (see my old thread in the general forum on goniometer testing) on some of my smaller BM blades (330 w/ATS-34) and lo and behold, their edges were even thicker (a wide included angle) than the Calypso Jr, Ltwt, which had a much thicker blade.

Minimally, since differing blade steels in matching blade types isn't common (at least for ATS-34 and 440V), you should edge both of the blades the same before testing. I think a laser pointer can verify that they're close.

And I don't think it's enough to say the edge angles are close just because "they both shave hair" ... you can have a very wide but sharp angle that will superficially cut as well as a very narrow and sharp angle. The narrow one will push thru paper better, having less resistance, but the wide one will handle a lateral impact much better.

Another way to guarantee that they're both at the same angle is to use the same angle setting on the sharpener for both.

 

[Outlaw_Dogboy]

IIRC, the ATS-34 blades were an AFCK, a Pioneer, ... and I can't remember the third. Maybe a Genesis. It was over in the General forum, about a month ago. The thread was started because one of the blades chipped, and it wasn't the Benchmade. IIRC, it was the Pioneer, which was the only blade that was hollow ground (supporting your opinion, to a degree, IMO). I don't think anyone will dispute that the edge angle on the AFCK is anywhere near that of the Native, or even the Military.
The Buck was a very thin edge, because it had been sharpened over many years by yours truly, and I had always sharpened it at a very low angle on the sharpening stone. Much lower than I do on the Sharpmaker. Also, the Buck had been sharpened so many times that it had been sharpened way back behind the originaly edge bevel, which was/is gone now. In other words, the blade width was a lot less than it was when it came from the factory.

------------------
It's just a ****ing staple!
Outlaw_Dogboy, Pax River NAS, Republik of Marilundt

 

[db]

Sorry, I should have said the one I used. It was the Caly. Jr. Ltwt. I just got the knife and I think the part of the edge I used had not cut anything yet. I have not sharpened or steeled or touched the edge as of yet so it is a true factory edge that cut on the little paper staple.
I am sure that it was Steve, Harv, that did the hanger test. The 3rd knife was a Speedtech. Not sure but I think he resharpened all of them to the same angle.
Btw I think that VG-10 is hardened to 61-63 at Cpyderco.

[This message has been edited by db (edited 19 November 1999).]

 

[bagman]

On the Guinness front the only place to really drink it is over in Ireland.

I was over in Dublin for a couple of days at the end of September on business and did have a few jars of the black necter (what was even better was that work was paying for it

------------------
Harvey Wareham

Live Long & Prosper, so you can buy more knives

 

[Outlaw_Dogboy]

Oh yessss, I can only imagine how good the Guinness is in Ireland. The closest I was to Ireland was UK, at Boscombe Downe, near Salisbury. Good beer, bitter, and ciders all around!!!

Went into London for a day, and was disappointed. Only stuff like Karlsburg and Budweiser!

Anyway... back to the staples and steels. I think that Steve did sharpen all the blades to the same edge angle.

------------------
It's just a ****ing staple!
Outlaw_Dogboy, Pax River NAS, Republik of Marilundt

 

[Clay Kesting]

Here we go off topic again

but it's O-D's thread and he asked about Guinness

.

It is popular in Australia especially in the Irish pubs. My favourite (before I went on the wagon) was a local stout made be a small brewery in South Australia called Coopers. At about 7% it would really knock your socks off, maybe that's why I stopped drinking

. From my limited experience Aussie beers seem to be more "full bodied" than those in the US.

BTW, why did you use a knife to open your Guinness, I thought they all had ring pulls (knife content

).

------------------
Take care,
Clay

Don't worry that the world might end tomorrow....in Australia it's tomorrow already.

 

[Outlaw_Dogboy]

BTW, why did you use a knife to open your Guinness, I thought they all had ring pulls (knife content ).

Slick, Clay. Really slick!
In seriousness... I was curious how they get the 'draught' effect from the canned stout. I knew the basic principle, but I wanted to see the device myself. So, I cut the can open (easier than tearing it, and you get to test your edge...

). Worked great, too.
The beers in the US are pitiful, in my opinion. I got totally spoiled in the 9 days that I was in the UK. I was told that one of the reasons that the beers over there are 'stouter'

is that the brewers are not so tightly controlled as they are in the US. Therefore, there is quite a bit of variation allowed in the same type and brand. One batch, you might get 4%, the next time you might get 8%. Makes things more interesting. The pub that I was in when I heard this had a listing of beers that they served, along with the alcohol content. The keep was explaining that those figures were the average or normal content, and they could vary by several percent. They had one there called "Danish Dynamite" that was listed at 9%. The several pints that I had were very good

! I think I drank more beer over there in 9 days than I normally do in about 20, especially since there was a GREAT cheap pub at our inn.
OBTW, Cooper's sounds really good!

------------------
It's just a ****ing staple!
Outlaw_Dogboy, Pax River NAS, Republik of Marilundt