Grading Handle Materials

[rprocter]

custom knives are often described as having scales of "A Grade", "Presentation Grade" or "Presidential Grade". (are there others ?)
what is the definition of these grades and who decides which of the various grades accurately describes a specific piece of handle material ? roland

 

[Joss]

It means nothing - pure marketing fluff. There are some material provider who try to objectively grade their stuff (I'm thinking of Ironwood Don), but I wouldn't put too much equity in those terms.

 

[rprocter]

Thanks Joss; that's a surprise. i thought these terms were backed by a set of grading standards and therefore meaningful. so now i can cut up an old Victoriaville hockey stick and have "Presentation Grade Hickory" ! roland

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

It means nothing - pure marketing fluff.

I agree and disagree with Joss.

I agree the terms; A Grade, Presentation Grade, Presidential Grade, Exhibition Grade etc are overused. I've seen materials on knives listed in these terms that I would describe as standard.

Were I disagree is that it is "pure marketing fluff".

The problem is there are no set standards for grading. The supplier or the knifemaker grade the materials. A problem with grading is how big a sample does someone need to see before they have enough background information to grade material? If you have three pair of mammoth ivory it is easy to determine which is best. Is the best pair Exhibition Grade? In a sample of 3 it is the best but in a sample of 500 it could be poor. I can tell you from personal experience, as we see more material our grading gets harder. An example is our private stash drawer. As we grade materials some pieces stand out. We save those pieces for ourselves to be used on our knives. A few times a year we go through the private stash and usually a few pieces will go into the inventory. Our standards have gone up because our sample of materials has gotten bigger.

Another problem with grading designations is who the designations are for. For example, we grade our mammoth ivory for the following; Color, Texture, Flatness, Color Depth, & Cracks. Do collectors care how deep the color goes in the ivory? Our designations are directed to knifemakers not collectors. What if a pair of mammoth ivory scales are "Exhibition Grade" and all the color and texture are removed when installed on the knife. Should the knife be advertised as having "Exhibition Grade" ivory?

I think the solution to the problem is to learn by:
1) Asking experts opinions
2) Looking at materials yourself
With experience you will learn to grade materials yourself.

 

[rprocter]

Chuck, thanks for that excellent dissertation. "look at the materials yourself" is optimal, but us regular guys are limited to looking at the knife on a computer screen. it's not the same as personally seeing and handling the material. so i am left again with the makers description. however, now knowing that there are no set, or even accepted, standards for grading (as there is for jewlery), then i will have to use my own (limited) judgement.
"What other judgement can i judge by than my own" (Shaw/J.ofA.)

 

[RogerP]

The problem is there are no set standards for grading. .

This is exactly why it is pure marketing fluff. Absent an objective standard, the terms can (and often are) used to describe materials of almost any quality. Sometimes its because people don't know any better, and other times, it's simply that some people will say anything to make a sale. Or it could be that a given individual just has a very different idea of what constitues "premium" or "presentation" than you do. Since there is no reference standard, who is to say he's wrong?

As a practical approach, when you don't have the opportuity to examine the material yourself, it is best to place no reliance whatsoever on terms such as "premium" and "grade A" and "presentation grade" unless you happen to have a pretty good idea of the qualifications and integrity of the person making those representations.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

Yep Buzz words.
It would be easy enough for a group of knowledgeable makers and collectors to get together and form a standard for grading handle materials. Sounds like another project the CKCA could take on. We are going to be a busy group.

But seriously, I'm surprised it hasn't been done considering the experts we have on the subject.

I would have no problem at all relying on a standard of grading system for ivory that Don Hanson would develop.

During one of my first Blade Shows, David Anders gave me a lesson on buying ivory at one of the ivory/stag kiosk. Very grateful to him for that.

 

[Kohai999]

As a practical approach, when you don't have the opportuity to examine the material yourself, it is best to place no reliance whatsoever on terms such as "premium" and "grade A" and "presentation grade" unless you happen to have a pretty good idea of the qualifications and integrity of the person making those representations.

Roger

UNLESS the maker, represents, and is willing to back it up with a proof-of-purchase, that the supplier is like the afformentioned ironwood guy, Chuck Bybee(Alpha Knife Supply) or Mother of Pearl Company, because you can SEE the differences online, and they clearly state in many cases what the grading system represents....

From Mother of Pearl Company website:

Presentation Grade is the highest grade of Mother of Pearl obtainable. This grade of pearl has no fractures, defects, discoloration, holes or unfavorable markings.
"A+" Grade is very similar to Presentation grade. Usually, this grade will have one very minor flaw at one end of the scale. This flaw will usually include yellow coloration, and/or a slight fracture. Usually, this flaw can be cut around or trimmed away.
"A" Grade is also a very high grade of pearl. Pieces will have a flawless front side. The reverse side will generally have minor shallow fractures, some yellow coloration, and/or a slight worm hole that can be avoided.
"B" Grade is still a workable grade of Mother of Pearl and is commonly used by beginning knife makers or knife makers that make relatively inexpensive knives. "B" grade Mother of Pearl will still have a flawless front side. The reverse side will have some deeper fractures, more discoloration, a larger worm hole that has been filled, and/or some exterior bark.

Makes a big difference in price, too:

Pres. Grade A+ Grade A Grade B Grade
$53.00 $40.00 $29.00 $18.00


Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Jon Brand]

Yep Buzz words.
I would have no problem at all relying on a standard of grading system for ivory that Don Hanson would develop.

I second that and vote him in. Except no one else would have "presentation grade" handles ever again.

 

[RogerP]

UNLESS the maker, represents, and is willing to back it up with a proof-of-purchase, that the supplier is like the afformentioned ironwood guy, Chuck Bybee(Alpha Knife Supply) or Mother of Pearl Company, because you can SEE the differences online, and they clearly state in many cases what the grading system represents....

In Chuck's case, neither qualification nor integrity would be in any doubt.

It is tremendously helpful to the prospective buyer for the seller to clearly state their own definitions for the grading system they employ, as in your example from Mother of Pearl Company.

Roger

 

[Keith Montgomery]

To me, it depends on who it is that is doing the grading. There are certain people, such as Chuck or Culpepper & Co., that I would depend on to be completely honest in grading materials. There are others that I wouldn't trust at all. I've seen too many presentation grade pieces of stag that looked like crap.