grinding the bevel

Jarrett Fleming

Jarrett Fleming

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Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Jun 5, 2011
Messages
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I decided that I wanted to start making knives as a hobby. So recently Ive been reading a lot of interesting things on knife making. I decided to make my first one out of an old lawn mower blade instead of buying an expensive steel that I would probably mess up. So far all I have done is profiled the blade and drilled the holes for the handle. The next thing I want to do is grind the bevel.
What do I need to use to do this?
Where could I find a good written or video tutorial?
 
Emerson15 said:
I decided that I wanted to start making knives as a hobby.
So recently I've been reading a lot of interesting things on knife making.

I decided to make my first one out of an old lawn mower blade instead of buying an expensive steel that I would probably mess up.


Where could I find a good written or video tutorial?
Click to expand...


Where did you get the info that a lawnmower blade was useful as knife steel?
You read the $50 dollar knife shop?
Apparently, in the new edition, even he has recommended new known steel.




Lawnmower blades are not good knife steel

Good quality knife steel is very cheap - about 1$ per inch for O1 in Canada & there are both cheaper blade steesl and lower prices in the USA
Especially when you consider all the time and work involved, you owe it to yourself to use a good quality steel.





I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V15

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-Website

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:
See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings & the Loveless book. Google books thread


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

The goop quench is total Bull.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.

Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.

Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use O1, A2, D2, CM154, ATS34, s30v, 440C, plus many others.

If you want to heat treat yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel, 1070, 1080, 1084.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for knifemaking.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel with great results, but is a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 needs very good temperature control and proper fast quench oil Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

This PDF brochure gives a good overview
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf

http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788837
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726309



Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here


V15 Added Craftsman speed modification link
 
Last edited:
Thank you for the info. Yes I do have the $50 knife shop. I know that lawn mower blade steel is not ideal for knife making. The only reason I am using it is because I have a lot of them laying around and I just wanted to get started today. Im just wanting to get an idea of what to do before I start using some nicer stuff. I'll be ordering a few different bars of steel and some handle materials in the next week or two.
 
You can use a big file to grind a bevel. And then a stone to sharpen. If your bevel is flat ground in a "v" shape and the bevel is about twice as wide as your blade is thick, then you have about a 30* bevel. Similar to a Scandinavian or scandi grind. That would be the least expensive way to make a bevel. Zach@zachtateknives.com
 
Emerson15, I see you are here in GA. This is fortunate. The GA Guild is having is quarterly meeting on August 13 at Scott Davidson's shop in Alto GA. Also, on September 23, 24, 25th, the Guild is having its biannual hammerin at the Trackrock campground in Blairsville GA. If you want to learn, these two events will get you a long way fast!
 
Fiddleback I would absolutely love to come to the Ga Guild meeting. What kind of stuff do yall do at the meetings?
 
Emerson15 said:
Fiddleback I would absolutely love to come to the Ga Guild meeting. What kind of stuff do yall do at the meetings?
Click to expand...

Edumacate new guys on how not to use old lawnmower blades for knives! (sorry, couldn't resist) :D
 
Haha I should of never told you guys thats what I was using. I've already ordered some good steel blanks hopefully they will be here by friday. I just wanted to practice with the old lawnmower blade. For my first time making a knife I think it turned out pretty well!
 
So have you learned yet? Go to any photo hosting site thats free, sign up, upload your pics, then copy the urls of the pics and post them here,by using the button that looks like a painting of a tree in between the world and the movie reel on reply/quick reply little thingy where you type, we wait, in the shadows...

If you need any more help let us know!
 
Emerson15 said:
Fiddleback I would absolutely love to come to the Ga Guild meeting. What kind of stuff do yall do at the meetings?
Click to expand...

Talk knives, look at knives, get advice from better makers (I do a lot of this), swap supplies, listen to demonstrations (usually 3), at Scotts we eat a helluva lunch (I usually bring some beer), talk more knives. Its just a good day to be a knifemaker and better yourself at your craft.
 
"The Count" has posted all the stickys, but be sure to read "How to Instructions for Makeing a Knife". It covers the whole process using files and sandpaper.
 
OK, I just want to point out that I have seen new people come on here and ask for advise about getting started and getting better at shaping and grinding knives and that your first knives will likely be junk that you will never want to show anyone. And some have told these new people to practice on junk metal, even mild steel and do 100 all the same making each better than the last. Then I see threads like this that basically say you are wasting your time working with metal that is not ideal for making knives apparently even as your first knife.

So, what I am trying to get at is, what is wrong with a newbie practicing on a lawnmower blade or an old file? Sure it's not ideal and isn't going to be an award winning knife but does get the person some hands on experience without wasting good metal. I understand that some 1084 is not that expensive but it isn't free. In this case the guy has lawnmower blades lying around. Why not practice on them? I guess I don't understand the logic in making your first knife out of a good knife steel if you know darn well it is going to be a POS.

I personally think old files are great for a beginner on a budget especially if you have a couple old junk files lying around like I did. It is FREE metal to practice with. The first time I annealed any metal was my first attempt at making a knife from an old file. What did I learn? How to build a forge, how to control the heat in the forge, and had the first step of gratification knowing I just annealed a piece of metal. Then I shaped it and HTed it as though it was W2 since it seams most OLD files are a W type steel. Turned out the steel ended up... well as hard as a file. Did I HT it ideally? Probably not. Did I over heat it? Probably. Is it worth showing off? I think it is actually, as it was my first knife and was the first piece of metal I heat treated and believe it or not, it was the first blade I did a clay temper trying a hamon on (it was a tanto). I learned so much from that file that I do not regret it at all. In my case it was actually somewhat sentimental using that old file because it was my grandpa's file and he was the one who got me into metal working in the first place.

I am no expert but my opinion to this new guy is to try a couple blades on the FREE lawnmower blade steel you have, before going to the good stuff. Nothing wrong with recycling some old lawnmower blades.
 
Brad ( shadowshamon) - I'll be a bit blunt.....
At 30, you are not a kid, and you work as a metal fabricator, so you can't claim immaturity or inexperience. I would hope that you should know the difference between good steel and junk when it comes to making things. I can't imagine giving a contract to a shop where the owners thought it was OK to use the wrong thing , and advised others to do it. Pride in workmanship alone should make anyone want to do it right. Also, there can be a lot to learn by doing it right.....and little to learn by doing it with no intention from the start of it being any good.

You say that people have suggested that working with junk steel is a good way to start. True,some say that. But many of those same people post that used motor oil is a good quenchant, all files are W-2, and that a BBQ is just fine for doing HT. At the same time, the people who do this day in and day out always post to use a known knife steel when getting started.

You suggest that old files and lawnmower blades are a great way to start for a beginner on a budget. For less than the cost of the sandpaper used to make a knife, a proper steel can be bought. In the end the maker will have a knife for his time and money, not a letter opener.

I don't mean to sound like I am going off on you, but as a metal worker and craftsman, you should know better.
 
Fiddleback said:
Talk knives, look at knives, get advice from better makers (I do a lot of this), swap supplies, listen to demonstrations (usually 3), at Scotts we eat a helluva lunch (I usually bring some beer), talk more knives. Its just a good day to be a knifemaker and better yourself at your craft.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a good time I hope that I can make it.
And to anyone that is interested I should have pics of the completed knife by the end of the week. The handle material is suppose to be here on Wed.
 
I want to apologize to Brad for the way that post sounded. When I re-read it this morning, it came off as being very harsh on him directly. I was not meaning it to sound so personal. It was very wrong to single out a new member for such an example. Sorry.

What I was intending to do was use him as an example of those who regularly post that using lesser materials is a good thing for beginners. The opposite is true. An inexperienced maker needs as few variables as possible to learn the craft. Once the person has gained the skills and understanding of basic knife making procedures and metallurgy he can experiment with all sorts of "found" items. But, until that time he/she should use known and reliable materials. 1084 is probably the best first carbon steel, and CPM-154 is probably the best stainless starter steel. The term "Best" does not exclude there being other great choices, but I believe the vast majority of first blades are done with these, or very similar, steels.
 
I've been practicing on pieces of wood on my 2x72 to get my bevel down. Little strips that are the same thickness as the metal I will be using. I also have 0-1 tool steel that I have a pretty big "bone Pile" of screwed up pieces. I found that either gives you practice. The wood trick is something I picked up here on the forums, and I gotta say it works pretty sweet. My 2 cents.
 
ShadowsHamon said:
OK, I just want to point out that I have seen new people come on here and ask for advise about getting started and getting better at shaping and grinding knives and that your first knives will likely be junk that you will never want to show anyone. And some have told these new people to practice on junk metal, even mild steel and do 100 all the same making each better than the last. Then I see threads like this that basically say you are wasting your time working with metal that is not ideal for making knives apparently even as your first knife.

So, what I am trying to get at is, what is wrong with a newbie practicing on a lawnmower blade or an old file? Sure it's not ideal and isn't going to be an award winning knife but does get the person some hands on experience without wasting good metal. I understand that some 1084 is not that expensive but it isn't free. In this case the guy has lawnmower blades lying around. Why not practice on them? I guess I don't understand the logic in making your first knife out of a good knife steel if you know darn well it is going to be a POS.

I personally think old files are great for a beginner on a budget especially if you have a couple old junk files lying around like I did. It is FREE metal to practice with. The first time I annealed any metal was my first attempt at making a knife from an old file. What did I learn? How to build a forge, how to control the heat in the forge, and had the first step of gratification knowing I just annealed a piece of metal. Then I shaped it and HTed it as though it was W2 since it seams most OLD files are a W type steel. Turned out the steel ended up... well as hard as a file. Did I HT it ideally? Probably not. Did I over heat it? Probably. Is it worth showing off? I think it is actually, as it was my first knife and was the first piece of metal I heat treated and believe it or not, it was the first blade I did a clay temper trying a hamon on (it was a tanto). I learned so much from that file that I do not regret it at all. In my case it was actually somewhat sentimental using that old file because it was my grandpa's file and he was the one who got me into metal working in the first place.

I am no expert but my opinion to this new guy is to try a couple blades on the FREE lawnmower blade steel you have, before going to the good stuff. Nothing wrong with recycling some old lawnmower blades.
Click to expand...

My thinking is this. Even though it might be a person's first attempt, they should use known, blade quality steel. Reason being is this; what IF it turns out to be something nice? Would you want to spend all the time necessary to make a useable blade, only to find out the steel used wasn't hardenable? Not me.
 
bladsmth said:
An inexperienced maker needs as few variables as possible to learn the craft.
Click to expand...
I believe that's true no matter what your level of experience. And yes, I've made several file knives... but I don't trust them as much as I do ones made from new steel, and I'm clear to clients in that regard.

bladsmth said:
1084 is probably the best first carbon steel, and CPM-154 is probably the best stainless starter steel.
Click to expand...

A maker could stick with those two alloys for their entire career and do just fine :thumbup:
 
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