Grinds

P

protodoc

Joined
Jan 7, 2001
Messages
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Andy:

I seem to recall that in the past you preferred a convex grind over a Scandi grind for all around use and cutting performance. On your recent batches the Scandi's seem to outnumber the convex grinds.

Is this due to customer demand or have you changed your thoughts about blade geometry?
 
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While I will not presume to speak for Andy, I believe I have read in this Forum (in a post about a demonstration Andy gave at the GA Knifemaker's Guild) that Andy makes blades with a Scandi grind because that is what is "in" right now.
 
protodoc said:
Andy:

I seem to recall that in the past you preferred a convex grind over a Scandi grind for all around use and cutting performance. On your recent batches the Scandi's seem to outnumber the convex grinds.

Is this due to customer demand or have you changed your thoughts about blade geometry?
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Andy still prefers the convex personally from what I read recently, but a lot of his customers like the scandi grind.
 
That's what he's said in the past. He makes the Scandi because there's a market for it. I'm glad he does, because I LOVE a scandi. So simple and clean. That twinkle in Andy's eye, it's some future scandi Bushfinger that he's going to make, and I'm going to own it! :)
 
chainring said:
That's what he's said in the past. He makes the Scandi because there's a market for it. I'm glad he does, because I LOVE a scandi. So simple and clean. That twinkle in Andy's eye, it's some future scandi Bushfinger that he's going to make, and I'm going to own it! :)
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Did you see the scandi Bushfinger in that last batch?
 
Oh, yeah, I did! That "no available knives" part really hurt me. Cut me to the quick, it did. :)
 
chainring said:
That's what he's said in the past. He makes the Scandi because there's a market for it. I'm glad he does, because I LOVE a scandi. So simple and clean. That twinkle in Andy's eye, it's some future scandi Bushfinger that he's going to make, and I'm going to own it! :)
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I appreciate the clean lines of the Scandi grind but for me personally the convex grind holds a special fascination. I am drawn to knife makers who offer it. Besides Andy, I have some blades by Scott Gossman, Ed Fowler, and Mike Steward (Bark River).
It also seems to be the most technically demanding grind to execute. If I am wrong with that assumption then someone please set me straight.
 
protodoc said:
I appreciate the clean lines of the Scandi grind but for me personally the convex grind holds a special fascination. I am drawn to knife makers who offer it. Besides Andy, I have some blades by Scott Gossman, Ed Fowler, and Mike Steward (Bark River).
It also seems to be the most technically demanding grind to execute. If I am wrong with that assumption then someone please set me straight.
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From what I understand in general, and from what Andy and Dylan have both said elsewhere, that seems to be correct. It's hard to grind consistent curves all the way down the blade, let alone do it and have the grind marks end up looking clean. Scandi grinds, because they're flat, are not quite as challenging. Even if the grind is off by a few degrees in some areas (which I have noticed in a lot of scandi knives), it doesn't affect performance much or even look particularly bad.

I think I appreciate scandis from a functional as well as aesthetic perspective; they're easy to maintain, easy to work with when it comes to wood, and are very sharp. But I think at the end of the day, I'm more inclined to agree with Mike Stewart and Andy and the rest of the convex crowd. There's nothing a scandi grind can do that a convex can't, the latter just demands slightly more from the user in terms of control and technique. Plus, they're tougher to boot, and, if you invest in a good strop, even easier to maintain.
 
chainring said:
Oh, yeah, I did! That "no available knives" part really hurt me. Cut me to the quick, it did. :)
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Yeah, with Blade being so close now I expect to see more of that. With the cost of those tables he has to have some things to put on it :)
 
Done right the complex convex grind is one of the most difficult to learn how and why and to achieve a performance balance. I am still learning after working with it for over 20 years, but for me it is well worth the effort. I first saw it on a knife made (probably) by the father of Michael Price, I wondered why and what for, then after testing numerous knives to destruction came to understand his thoughts when he made it. You can provide strength to the tip and front third of the blade very efficiently.
 
First, I can't describe how honored I am to have had Ed Fowler post in my forum. Ed, you are a personal hero. I read your posts and look at your site all the time.

This is just a general speil I have, and have given more than once including during a tutorial demo for the GA guild. I am a convex guy. I don't make Scandi ground knives because I love this grind. I make them because of customer demand. When I'm in the woods I carry Convex. While the Scandi will sear through wood a bit easier than convex, this is the only performance advantage. Skinning, food prep, any chopping, batonning, slicing, butchering, etc, are all better with convex IMO. There is one more advantage to Scandi knives. They're easy to accomplish. With a jig (which I consider to be essential as you'll see below) I could train my 8 year old daughter to make them in an hour. The only requirement that is important when making Scandi's is that the grind be in the same plane. This is key. Otherwise when the customer first sharpens the knife, it shows off all your mistakes after the first pass on the stone. With a jig this is no trouble to get past.

The reason you've been seeing so many Scandi's is because I've been hurried a lot, and haven't had the extra time to grind convexes as much. As stated, it is by far the most complicated grind. With no hard backing surface to count as with flat or hollow grinds, you have a lot more chance of tripping up a grind, especially at the plunge. Go look at convex knives and watch for the divot on the spine at the plunge. Its really hard to not do that.

One more cool thing about Scandi's. They allow for a lot of room to show off 3D spalting. I like that.




protodoc said:
I appreciate the clean lines of the Scandi grind but for me personally the convex grind holds a special fascination. I am drawn to knife makers who offer it. Besides Andy, I have some blades by Scott Gossman, Ed Fowler, and Mike Steward (Bark River).
It also seems to be the most technically demanding grind to execute. If I am wrong with that assumption then someone please set me straight.
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Ed Fowler said:
Done right the complex convex grind is one of the most difficult to learn how and why and to achieve a performance balance. I am still learning after working with it for over 20 years, but for me it is well worth the effort. I first saw it on a knife made (probably) by the father of Michael Price, I wondered why and what for, then after testing numerous knives to destruction came to understand his thoughts when he made it. You can provide strength to the tip and front third of the blade very efficiently.
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Fiddleback:

Thank you for your kind thoughts.
One thing I have learned is that life is to short to make something you do not want to make. I made that decision about 35 years ago and have never been sorry.This belief has been reinforced after 6 major surgeries in the last 7 years and the past 6 months not being able to make a knife.

During this past enforced layoff I have spent a lot of time reviewing the knives of past makers from the stone age to today, asking the age old questions "what for" and "why". I believe I have been able to answer these questions about many knives I have always been fond of and the same goes for many of the knives I would not want to be in a position to have to use, carry and depend on for any serious work.

I believe that some of these knives I don't care for came to be through tradition and what the client wanted, kind of like the hooker on main street there will always be makers who will fill the demand and make knives they don't love, I don't intend to slight them, just understand why.

It is up to us as individuals to make our personal decisions and in reality there is only one rule - Enjoy our time with knives!

Yesterday I worked on a knife (first time since November) I have been wanting to make for over a year, it was an extremely rewarding day for me. The kind of joy many craftsmen know well.
 
Ed Fowler said:
Done right the complex convex grind is one of the most difficult to learn how and why and to achieve a performance balance. I am still learning after working with it for over 20 years, but for me it is well worth the effort. I first saw it on a knife made (probably) by the father of Michael Price, I wondered why and what for, then after testing numerous knives to destruction came to understand his thoughts when he made it. You can provide strength to the tip and front third of the blade very efficiently.
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This is the best post to have ever occurred in this forum. I can't tell you how nice it is to see a maker of Ed Fowler's caliber saying this.

I can't count how many times I've heard some newb bastard tell me or post how the convex is the easiest grind to do bla bla bla. I'm a firm believer that everybody has to start somewhere in knowledge, skills, etc. HOWEVER, every time some newb wannabe knife know-it-all insults me and my craft by trivializing and completely cutting the bawls off of a skill that I have worked very hard to learn, feel blessed to be able to perform as well as I can, and take immense pride in, I want to twist their head off and deliver it promptly to their lower GI tract via their ass on the Dylan's Boot Express. I understand that maybe they don't understand how much it pisses me off and insults me, but that certainly doesn't make me feel any better about it.

I actually had a customer say to me on the phone once that he'd always heard that the convex grind was the easiest one to do. I almost just hung the phone up, but I kept a cool head, remained calm, and explained to him that the opinions given to him on the convex grind were incorrect and whoever said this to him obviously had no first-hand knowledge of how to execute that grind cleanly and correctly. I try to stay calm with all individuals in this situation and educate them. That is of course unless I've been drinking. Then, my reaction would be considered slightly less than "educational". ;)

By the way, Andy still gives me sh#t all the time that I don't do Scandi grinds. Then again, he has kids to feed and I don't.
 
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The convex grind for me has been a challenge. It is a grind that is very personal for the maker. To teach someone how I do it would be very difficult. It's a hands on learning experience. It's all in the feel as far as pressure applied along the blade while grinding. There are many ways to reach the final end product on the grinder. That is what is so nice about the grind.
Scott
 
Two great makers now have posted in this thread. Thanks Scott.

(I didn't count myself, of course, and you either Dylside.:))
 
Fletcher Knives said:
This is the best post to have ever occurred in this forum. I can't tell you how nice it is to see a maker of Ed Fowler's caliber saying this.

I can't count how many times I've heard some newb bastard tell me or post how the convex is the easiest grind to do bla bla bla. I'm a firm believer that everybody has to start somewhere in knowledge, skills, etc. HOWEVER, every time some newb wannabe knife know-it-all insults me and my craft by trivializing and completely cutting the bawls off of a skill that I have worked very hard to learn, feel blessed to be able to perform as well as I can, and take immense pride in, I want to twist their head off and deliver it promptly to their lower GI tract via their ass on the Dylan's Boot Express. I understand that maybe they don't understand how much it pisses me off and insults me, but that certainly doesn't make me feel any better about it.

I actually had a customer say to me on the phone once that he'd always heard that the convex grind was the easiest one to do. I almost just hung the phone up, but I kept a cool head, remained calm, and explained to him that the opinions given to him on the convex grind were incorrect and whoever said this to him obviously had no first-hand knowledge of how to execute that grind cleanly and correctly. I try to stay calm with all individuals in this situation and educate them. That is of course unless I've been drinking. Then, my reaction would be considered slightly less than "educational". ;)

By the way, Andy still gives me sh#t all the time that I don't do Scandi grinds. Then again, he has kids to feed and I don't.
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It could be that people are confused. I think maybe people mistake the ease in maintenance of the convex grind with it being easy to grind. Just a guess though.

Unless we're talking super thin stock mora's or something, scandi's are only good for wood working. Try cutting an onion with a 1/8" scandi. It's a PITA. I prefer more general use grinds like convexed or flat grinds.
 
Bill Moran taught me the simple and personal way to evaluate blade geometry. Hold the blade in one hand, place your thumb and forefinger of your other hand on the knife, finger tips up, and slide your hand back and forth, up and down and feel geometry of the blade. You can also hold it with the light shinning on it and move it around watching the reflection. You soon come to learn the blade. I do both with every knife. When you are satisfied with your work, cut with her, see how she cuts, the edge geometry can vary in accord to the intended purpose of the knife, providing slicing in one area and strength toward the front third of the blade, be sure and leave adequate strength for the tip.

The most important single aspect is to test the blade and see if what you have built works as you intended.
 
Shotgun said:
It could be that people are confused. I think maybe people mistake the ease in maintenance of the convex grind with it being easy to grind. Just a guess though.
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Usually I actually ask that question to make sure. THEN I get pissed. lol
 
I don't get pissed at the misconception. I totaly understand the assumption that convex is the easiest. And if you just want a sharpened prybar with a horrible apple seed edge geometry, then it is pretty easy, and it'll cut things when you're done. So beginners try this grind rather than all the sharp, intimidating, complicated grind line patterns that flat and hollow grinders do. The exceptionally hard part is achieving a real cutter with true convex geometry that looks good and cuts. Even harder than that is controlling it enough to create the sharp, intimidating, complicated grind line patterns with convex grinding methods. There is no solid backing surface for the belt, and this makes for a very touch controlled grind that takes a lot of practice.

Unless you're Dylan, then you master the convex sabergrind after 40 knives. I chased this for around 400 knives before getting it down. Now, at knife # 700ish, I can't imagine making knives without it.
 
The convex grind is also more time consuming than flat or hollow since you have to use light pressure against the belt. With flat and hollow grinds you can "lean into it" and hog off steel at the start then lighten up near the end. Also dull belts will still cut when you add more pressure (flat & hollow), whereas I found only new sharp belts will remove steel convex grinding.
Bruce
 
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