GUARANTEE!!!!!!!!

Cobalt

Cobalt

Platinum Member
Joined
Dec 23, 1998
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I feel that I need to make this thread since it has changed the way I view my recent knife purchases.

First, when someone buys a LARGE, bowie style, khukuri style, Tanto style knife thay usually do so because they want strength as well as utility. A knife that fails you under extreme circumstances in the middle of nowhere may have deleterious effects.

Even though, there is probably no knife that can't be broken, there are some that are tough enough to handle most any situation. The makers of these knives are so proud of their product, that they stand behind it 100%. I'm going to name three that I know for a fact stand behind their products; Busse, Mad Dog and Himalayan Imports. There may be others that I have not noted, but these have proven that they mean their guarantee.

What kind of confidence does it inspire in someone when this guarantee is not afforded to the buyer? Not much. Of course if you are fool enough to cut your knife in half with a torch then you really don't deserve a replacement. But I'm talking about normal wear and tear, prying, digging, chopping and uses you may have to incorporate into a SURVIVAL knife. This is the meaning of SURVIVAL after all, isn't it? My current philosophy whith this type of knife purchase is, NO GUARANTEE, NO PURCHASE!!

The following is part of the Himalayan Imports guarantee;...."If your khukuri should fail you in ANY way at any time simply contact HIMALAYAN IMPORTS for repair or replacement". Short and to the point. Need I say more.

Of course there are lesser knives that are not designed for toughness but have other attributes which don't have guarantees, and that's fine. But a knife marketed as TOUGH should have this guarantee. IMHO

[This message has been edited by Cobalt (edited 25 March 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Cobalt (edited 25 March 1999).]
 
While both Busse and Mad Dog have a reputation for strong knives and customer satisfaction, neither warrenty is unconditional and if both wanted to lawyer out of it they easily could.

Busses policy is against any damage that is not intentional. You could simply be told that when you pried with your BM and snapped it off, you intentionally broke it because you exceeded its intended capabilities and any reasonable person would have known that. Mad Dog's policy is even narrower and only covers defects in materials and workmanship. If he wanted to he could easily refuse a return using a similar argument.

However - I am willing to bet that the probability of a refusal is even lower than the probability of a breakage in the first place. Both people have high standards and I would not be concerned about getting a replacement. Most clauses from decent dealers are there to just protect them from nobs who break the knives on purpose and expect a refund. They are not there to protect against weaknesses in their knives. I will probably eventually buy a Project from Reeves and I am not concerned about a return refusal even though I don't even know what their return policy is.

As for unconditional guarantees, when I inquired about getting a Brend from Les Robertson he simply said return it if you are not satisfied. Craig Gottlieb as well has an open return policy on his khukuris.

-Cliff
 
Cobalt, that is a very easy guarantee for me to keep. In 11 years of doing business and with several thousand khukuris out to customers who really use and abuse them, our pal, Julian, is the only guy who ever damaged a blade -- took a quarter inch off the tip. No chips, no cracks, no bends, no breaks -- just Julian and his purple heart khukuri.

Then when I wanted to replace the khukuri, an 18th Century style, designed more for weaponry than wood chopping, Julian wouldn't have it. "I don't want another knife. I love THIS knife!" Solution: because they are both located in Canada and we could avoid a double trip through customs, Cliff reground the tip in ten minutes and Julian has his purple heart khukuri back, still working, and everybody is happy.

Handles crack from time to time and this is to be expected -- wood and horn are not as durable as steel. Unually, customers understand this and simply put a little epoxy into the crack and the knife keeps on going for a lifetime. But, if they want to return it, that's fine. I either resell the knife to somebody willing to put a little epoxy on the handle or else hang on to the knife until Kami gets here and he puts on a purple heart or cocabola handle and the knife is as good as new and goes out again.

I sell to people whose very lives might depend on the performance of the khukuri I send them. When I get the time I'm going to put up a customer list by type so you can see what I'm talking about. If I supplied these folks with anything less than I do I would not sleep well at night.

Bill
 
Cliff, when Busse claims damage that is not intentional hegoes a little further to explain what he meant. And that was that intentional is like cutting the knife with a torch. He also jokes about a tank running over it and that hwy would you want to hurt the tank. This means to me that intentional means to actually saw the knife in half. If you were using it in any other way for survival, it is guaranteed. In fact His guarantee starts off as...."GUARANTEED"...Basically meaning that under any heavy use, it is guaranteed. No Lawyer BS there. This is much different and cannot be compared to, "knives are not meant to be pry bars". Sorry, but a survival knife may have to perform this duty.

As for Robertson offering satisfaction, well he is not the maker. Does the guy who made it offer it. I like the Brend knives, by the way. In fact I would like to get one from brend himself but can't find his number.

If you are satisfied with a no prying implied guarantee then that is fine, I'm not. There is no doubt that the one piece line is extremely tough and will outlast many other knives that are marketed as being tough, but a little confidence on the part of the maker goes a long way to making me a believer.
 
A guarantee is necessary but not sufficient. Some of the cheapest, most useless tools on the market come with unconditional guarantees and the manufacturers honor them -- over and over. I have a #%$@ Craftsman breaker bar that came with the famous Craftsman "lifetime of #%$@" guarantee: every time it breaks they give me another #%$@ piece of #%$@ just like it. Unless they're out of stock; then they tell me to come back in a week and then they'll give me my replacement #%$@ piece of #%$@ so I can put my car back together.

Frankly I wish it didn't have that guarantee -- I'll never be able to get rid of that #%$@ piece of #%$@. It's on its fourth incarnation now and my Craftsman "lifetime of #%$@" has a long way to go yet, the gods willing. The only satisfaction in it for me is however little the replacements cost them they must be into the red by now, and I intend to keep bringing it back and demanding replacements every time it breaks just to spite them.

If another khukuri maker comes along with a guarantee as good as HI's that doesn't mean their khukuris are as good as HI's.

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Cougar, you are right, that sometimes a guarantie doesn't mean squat. But in a knife that you already know is high quality, it makes the decision process easier.

So, would you buy a Craftsman knife with a lifetime guarantee if they ever made one(maybe they do, who knows)? hehe
 
Cobalt I understand what you are saying and I would like it for people to just have an open policy as well. However more often that not a slightly restrictive warrenty is just to protect against nuts not sensible knife users.

Thanks for the point about Busse, I was just quoting was a dealer told me the return policy was. As for the Brend, I don't know what his personal policy is but if Les is willing to take a return I don't see a problem. Its just like HI, you return the khukuri to Bill not the kamis.

-Cliff
 
Cougar brings up a good point. Some products are inexpensive enough that the manufacturer can safely bet that the unhappy owner won't bother himself with the hassle of arranging a replacement or refund. Have any of you ever been dissatisfied with a food product and "returned the unused portion to your grocer" to get your money back? It's not worth the trouble, and the manufacturers know it. An ounce of image is worth a pound of performance, right? So chances are I won't take advantage of a guarnatee, unless the item cost more than, say, $10-20.00. More likely is that I would just quit buying it.

David Rock
 
Craftsman does make knives! I found one in the woods near my house when I was 14, polished the blade, wrapped the handle in duct tape, and still have it. Maybe I should return it to the store and ask for a replacement.
wink.gif
 
A lot of makers have no B.S warranties.I use a 3/8th.Snapon for things that you should use a 1/2"drive.It`s lighter and I havn`t broken one yet but,if I do lunch that torque wrench,because I used it for a breaker bar Snap On will give me a new one.I even use a 3/8 to 1/2 adaptor to go up.Abuse?Maybe but it`s worked fine so far and I don`t have to deal with a huge ratchet.Expensive?Yes, but,not in the long run.And I`m talking downtime.You do have to live long enough to make it pay.

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I have a buddy and customer who has a knife shop in Oregon. He makes some knives and guarantees them for life -- yours or mine, he says, and that makes me chuckle.

But you're right, ghostsix. You've got to live long enough to make the guarantee worthwhile.

Uncle Bill
 
See guys, what the guarantee does for me, is allow me to go test the knife hard and see if it can take what it claims it can. If I don't have the guarantee, then I won't abuse the knife and only hope that the people who did test it weren't lying or biased. I do not believe magazines test knives hard. And I believe that many of the manufacturers have others test who are more interested in writting than actuall testing.

I trust myself to be unbiased, because the truth is I don't follow any one maker blindly like a puppy. Many do and believe the word of the maker as the gospel. Not me. I trust there are people that also are unbiased, such as Cliff.

This is my reasoning for wanting the guarantee. If you cannot back up what you state about your knives with an equal guarantee, then you are just blowing methane gas into the wind, as far as I'm concerned.
 
It is not the guarantee that is the most important consideration but the actual performance of the knife. In an emergency situation a guarantee can't save your life. A good knife can.

Uncle Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Martino (edited 05 April 1999).]
 
Dissassembly of a BM OR MT is supposed to void the warranty.Of course,if you use it,it will have to be taken apart for cleaning.If you touch up the screws,I don`t see how they can tell that it`s been apart and,if later,a spring breaks and they don`t honor the warranty,can you imagine the vitriol on the forums?No Co.would welcome that. I warranty that I would spread the message if it happend to me.I take my enemies seriously and,I may forgive but,I never forget.

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[This message has been edited by ghostsix (edited 06 April 1999).]
 
I have wondered about the real policy on the BM warrenty. I can understand the reasoning. For example if you cannot put the knife back together properly and hence the knife is damaged then why should BM be responsible. I would be surprised if they actually ever rejected working on a knife because it was taken apart. By the way, BM, in particular will reinstate the warrenty if you void it for I think $20. I am not sure exactly how that works though, meaning under what conditions will the reinstate it.

-Cliff
 
In general when a warrantee says disassembly voids the guarantee that only means if you mess it up they won't fix your mistake for free. That is widely misunderstood and probably results in a lot of defective products not being returned....

One of the controversial aspects of Benchmade customer service is if you take one of their knives apart and lose a washer they won't sell you a new washer -- they insist you send them the knife and pay a hefty service fee ($20 IIRC) and wait for weeks instead of sending you a fifty cent part for fifty cents plus shipping like any reputable company would. We had a good hot flame war with a Benchmade representative over that on rec.knives maybe a year ago.

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Cougar:
Since we live in the Litigious States of America there is probably a liability concern that is part of the picture. I do agree however that a replacement part would be the logical way to do it.

------------------
P.J.
YES,it is sharp, just keep your fingers out of the way!
www.silverstar.com/turnermfg


 
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