Guards from Copper

flatgrinder

flatgrinder

Joined
Dec 20, 2005
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Usually makers use brass, nickel silver or stainless steel for guards. How come copper isn't used? :confused:

Aluminum isn't, I assume because of corrosion; is copper avoided for the same reason? Just curious.
 
Structurally a guard needs to be hard and strong:
Metallurgically, copper is soft and tarnishes easily (though so does brass really). Aluminium doesnt have a huge corrosion problem because it creates its own protective coating like anodising), but unless alloyed it will be quite soft too.


Lang
 
I'm a huge fan of copper furniture on knives. It looks great and takes a great polish. The drawback was stated that it does tarnish easily, some may not like the extra maintenance involved. I have a few on the drawing board that may get the copper treatment. -Matt-
 
flatgrinder said:
Usually makers use brass, nickel silver or stainless steel for guards. How come copper isn't used? :confused:
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Flatgrinder,

I use copper on a regular basis, especially on the Bowie knives I make. In fact, the "patina" that it takes on is what I like the most about copper. Most of the Bowie's I make got to the SASS folks, and the patina is what they want to make the knife look like "used" or "old". If you look at the guard in the photo below you can see what I mean about the "aged" patina on the copper.

However, if you want the color of copper, yet want the polished shine to be protected and not have the patina, you can put a light clear coat of lacquer on it once the proper polish and finish has been achieved.

I hope this helps,
-Mike

custom19.jpg
 
langchop said:
Structurally a guard needs to be hard and strong:
Metallurgically, copper is soft and tarnishes easily (though so does brass really). Aluminium doesnt have a huge corrosion problem because it creates its own protective coating like anodising), but unless alloyed it will be quite soft too.


Lang
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I think there is a bit of misconception around this. A guard can be made of something like Brass, Nickel Silver or Copper and function perfectly well, just as it can if it's made of iron or hard leather.

The guard serves to stop a blade in only the most dire circumstance and is far more likely to be used as a hand stop so you don't cut your fingers off. The soft copper will still stop a knife blade in most circumstances, because the cut is not likely to be executed with cutting the guard off in mind. The softer material may even be more beneficial.

The only reason to have a hard material for "blocking" would be to break a blade through stress. The "forte" of some edged weapons is used for such, but my understanding is that the forte is harder than the wrought iron, brass or bronze that you might find on a fighting knife.

I think you'll be just fine with copper, especially if your interest is in making a good looking, functional knife as opposed to some sort of super-doom-knife.
 
I use copper for guards, butt caps, bolsters, pins, spaces and etc. Everyone of my knives that I make will have copper in it.:thumbup: :thumbup: I really like the look of copper spacers with wrought iron guards and butt caps.;)
 
If you want the copper look and think copper is too soft - there are a number of copper alloys ,brasses and bronzes ,that are stronger and yet have the red color. Gilding metal , 5-10 % Zn with Cu ,is one of them.
 
All of the above.
Copper is one of the oldest knife metals. Whole knives and swords were made from it. Brass and bronze are copper alloys, too.
I like copper spacers with ancient materials, like oosik and mammoth. The habaki on a Japanese sword or knife will usually be copper.
Stacy
 
AcridSaint said:
The guard serves to stop a blade in only the most dire circumstance and is far more likely to be used as a hand stop so you don't cut your fingers off. The soft copper will still stop a knife blade in most circumstances, because the cut is not likely to be executed with cutting the guard off in mind. The softer material may even be more beneficial.
QUOTE]

I wasn't so much thinking of it being structurally strong in terms of being chopped at and protecting the hand from attacks, but rather due to the fact that guards can sometimes protrude quite a lot and could get bent easily in that case. It would "work", it could be bent back, but I imagine harder materials are more popular because we dont want it to ever bent under normal circumstances.

I think although most custom tactical/fighting type knives are never actually going to be used in battle, knifemakers would like to make a knife so that if it ever WAS used in its intended role, that it WOULD stand up to the requirement.

Stacy, complete copper knives/swords sound interesting. I imagine there must be some special hardening process which sounds quite interesting to read up on.

Lang
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Many people think copper is as soft as putty. With the right alloy, it can be nearly as hard as iron (Try to bend an old penny with your bare hands). In the thickness of a guard, it would hold up to most normal use. With work hardening, copper was used to make blades until the use of bronze and later iron replaced it. Even then, some ceremonial knives were still made from copper.
Stacy
 
Stacy covered it above, many guard materials will not stand up to abuse but even pure copper would stand up to the normal wear and tear of a belt knife, imho. Truthfully, most custom knives are, in every respect, as durable as ( if not more durable than) their historical counterparts. This is excluding modern knives made with extreme abuse in mind, of course.
 
flatgrinder said:
Usually makers use brass, nickel silver or stainless steel for guards. How come copper isn't used? :confused:

Aluminum isn't, I assume because of corrosion; is copper avoided for the same reason? Just curious.
Click to expand...

I have a knive made by Joel Bolden with copper bolsters and osage orange handles. I like it alot and I find it quite unique and look forward to the patina developing.
 
Thanks for all the replies and advice!

I was wondering, how come people use brass more often than copper? Is it softer (easier to work?) or more corrosion resistant? Or just cheaper?

P.S. Javelina, nice knife!
 
flatgrinder said:
Thanks for all the replies and advice!

I was wondering, how come people use brass more often than copper? Is it softer (easier to work?) or more corrosion resistant? Or just cheaper?

P.S. Javelina, nice knife!
Click to expand...

Hi Flatgrinder,

Thanks for the compliment on the knife, you're very kind.

I don't believe that copper is any more or less expensive than brass. To me, at least for the copper that I buy, copper seems to be a little harder than the brass that I've used. I actually like the copper because of the color. To me brass is too "yellow", the copper, without the patina has a "warmer" tone, which is what I prefer. My mentor (D'Holder) prefers brass because he likes the "yellow" color, so I guess it's simply a matter of taste. However, if a customer were to request that I use brass instead of copper, that's exactly what they would get. It is after all, going to be their knife, not mine, so it is very important that they get what they want. Sometimes, it's best to use a contrasting metal that helps accent the colors of the handle material being used.

Thanks again,
-Mike
 
From Matweb: "Copper by itself is relatively soft compared with common structural metals. An alloy with tin added to copper is known as bronze; the resulting alloy is stronger and harder than either of the pure metals.The same is true when zinc is added to copper to form alloys known as brass. "

Brass is also more tarnish resistant than copper.

from "http://www.engr.ku.edu/~rhale/ae510/aluminum/sld001.htm"

Pure copper is 5-6 times the cost of carbon steel. Zinc is about 2.5 times. So it would theoretically make it slightly cheaper, but there wold also be extra steps in its processing. I have generally seen brass to be slightly more pricey than copper but they are pretty close and fluctuate.

I imagine the answer to your question is more about tarnishing and hardness that cost.

Hope that helps

Lang
 
flatgrinder said:
Thanks for all the replies and advice!

I was wondering, how come people use brass more often than copper? Is it softer (easier to work?) or more corrosion resistant? Or just cheaper?

P.S. Javelina, nice knife!
Click to expand...

I think it's just what people are used to. Brass is fairly durable and has been used on pocket knives for years. It's also what we've seen many custom makers use for many years, although I've heard that 'brass has no class' saying once or twice.

I also think the scrap is easier to come by in workable sizes, so recycling becomes easier. Scrap copper usually comes in the form of scrap pipe and wiring, this isn't exactly the same with scrap brass or bronze.

Some folks believe that copper is not strong enough, others think it tarnishes too fast. Just about every one of us has seen a green penny, corroded wire, tarnished pot, etc. Not as many have seen the same corrosion with brass, even though it can still happen.

Or maybe it's just cause it's shinier. :o
 
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