Guided system for light commercial sharpening?

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mtnhaul

Joined
Apr 21, 2022
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Well as the title here says I am looking for recommendations/tips/? for a guided sharpening setup that would be acceptable for light commercial work. I have spent a lot of time in the last 2-3 years freehand sharpening my own knives mostly and I would like to offer sharpening service to the small rural community I live in. This is not an attempt to make a full-time business but who knows what the future holds. Although I get satisfactory edges on my own knives it does take me a bit too long to be efficient if I'm charging for my time. I have spent a fair amount of time reading around here for and will continue to do so but I would appreciate some suggestions in regards to what is currently available and within my budget. I would like to spend less than $1k for a setup that would allow me to sharpen average kitchen cutlery as well as axes/mauls/hatchets, and the ability to sharpen woodworking tools would be great as well. Of course I really don't know what sort of demand I will find since I haven't started yet but I would rather start with a setup that gives me a decent amount of options. If I was just doing my own knives I would probably go with the EdgePro as I really enjoy waterstones but it seems a bit slow if a larger quantity of knives needed to be sharpened in a reasonable amount of time. I love my Shapton Pro stones but if an edge needs a lot of work I again find it a bit slow and of course I am not as precise and consistent as a guide/jig. Any help is appreciated. FWIW if I had to make a decision right now I would lean towards a belt sander and some paper wheels but I haven't actually used either. Thanks in advance.
 
I can not see how you will be able to sharpen regular knives and axes using the same guided system. I guess you need to look into Tormek rather than classic guided systems. Classic systems are mainly for knives and not even all the knives.
 
Hi, MTNHAUL. I have some experience at part-time sharpening. (As a retirement gig.) I used a belt sander (Kalamazoo 1x42) with 45 micron belts and a leather belt with green compound. That worked well, but the farmers market customers didn't want to wait 40 minutes for their knives when I was busy. I had a locker on my front porch that brought me good business, and I could turn around their knives in one day. A buck an inch; not quite enough. Other sharpeners recommend a Tormek with a buffer and leather wheel, and that may be a better solution. Steve Bottorf used that. The front porch idea worked OK; nice to have a bit of cash in my pocket. I could sharpen at my convenience, and it took only a few minutes work. Hope this helps. Glad to talk to you about it if you want to.......Dan
 
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Thanks N napaknives The locker on the porch setup is more akin to what I am aiming for. On Saturdays at the local church they do a community coffee house thing where I thought I might setup to meet people and maybe do some sharpening or get customers for my landscaping business which is my real bread and butter.

What was your impression of the kalamzoo setup, quality? Were you responsible for maintaining the correct angle? Approx time to take a dull stainless 10" chef's knife to sharp enough to shave or cut paper easily?

The reason I was thinking about guided systems was mostly so I could precisely set a new bevel angle or at least make sure both sides of the grind are even--is this possible/relatively easy with the setup you used?
 
I'll put in my 2 cents, as someone who's considering a similar venture.

I think that fixed-angle systems--wonderful as they are--are too slow for commercial work, unless it's some kind of specialized work where you can charge more for the service. I think the absolute minimum time it takes to sharpen a knife with these systems is around 10 minutes, and it can be much longer than that if you have to reprofile or do edge repair. The same goes for bench stones.

Which basically leaves two options:

1. Belt grinder: 1" grinders (various lengths) are relatively cheap and they get the job done fast, with some practice. The biggest downside to me is that these heat up the blade pretty quickly, which can ruin the temper of the edge. Customers might not notice, but if it was my business I would know, and it would bother me. That's why I ruled it out. Also, those things are loud and they create a lot of dust, so you'd probably want to wear a respirator while operating it.

Having said all that ... this is probably the most popular method for commercial knife sharpeners.

2. Wet grinder: these are low-rpm machines that use a 8-10" wheel and guide jigs. The most popular, and expensive, brand is Tormek, who make all kinds of jigs for knife and tool sharpening. With the right jig you can sharpen damned-near anything with those machines (knives, chisels, gouges, drill bits, axes, etc., etc.). Base price for a 10" system that does knives, chisels planar blades, and axes is a hair over $1k.

Heat is a non-issue with these systems, so that's really good. Are they fast enough? Well ... sharpening businesses are using them, so it's possible, but I think it takes quite a bit of practice to approach the speed of a belt system. Mine should arrive on Thursday, so I'll provide updates!

Actually, there's a third option, which is a half-speed bench grinder with diamond or CBN wheels, but gets back into the overheating problem. Apparently it's mostly avoidable, but I don't know enough about it to opine one way or another.
 
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Another thing one has to think about if going into any sort of sharpening business, is location. Are you going to be doing it from a permanent location which will take into account people dropping off knives or you going and picking them up, another cost. If mobile, in someone else's home/office, or outside a market/shopping centre, this can restrict what you use, will you have access to power. In a mobile van, parking close by may be an issue, again if using machine's, access to power. These are a myriad of things you have to decide/workout before you decide which path you wish to head down. But it is a low margin play, so you have to keep costs to an absolute minimum.
 
I have a custom made belt machine that runs at low rpm's (700 rpm). It is fast, yet, with the slow belt speed and some care, it wont burn the edges. I use a variety of belts grits down to felt for the final polish. Then, when I get a one off knife that is a high end knife and they want some extra attention on it, I use the guided system (and charge accordingly).
 
I was concerned about the heat issue with a dry belt sander but their apparent popularity suggested that with practice they could be used without overheating the steel--perhaps I'm wrong there. I didn't come across much in the way of wet belt sanders but I haven't really searched hard either. Many years ago I used a large vertical wet belt sander for sanding glass and it worked great but was a bit messy.

Of course I looked at the Tormek but I just had reservations about buying into a system where pretty much everything has to be bought from one company. They are a little more expensive to get a complete setup but I'm sure with practice and the right wheels I could get satisfactory results in a reasonable time. 3D Anvil 3D Anvil I am curious to know your initial impressions of the Tormek. In particular I'm interested to know how their AngleMaster works since it looks kind of flimsy/chintzy in the pics and videos.

I would be doing this out of the home and possibly at one or two local spots where power would be accessible. I'm not the type of person who wants to setup at the farmers market or street fair. Part of my motivation for attempting this is that 2 years ago I had back surgery for a herniated disc and although I'm almost 100% now I have a new appreciation for work that doesn't tax my body as much. For better and for worse I've never been motivated to pursue only one thing as a source of income, so if I can become very good at sharpening then perhaps it can be a decent source of side income that I also enjoy doing. You never know when life will suddenly make a hard turn. Sure tech based jobs pay well but I prefer to work with my hands, again for better and for worse.
 
I know Benchmade at one time used a bunch of Worksharp Ken Onion Editions to sharpen knives at shows. I'm sure they did not harm the blades they serviced. The blade grinding attachment would make it a better tool.
 
murat1983 said:
I can not see how you will be able to sharpen regular knives and axes using the same guided system. I guess you need to look into Tormek rather than classic guided systems. Classic systems are mainly for knives and not even all the knives.
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I have successfully sharpened a number of hawks and axes on EdgePro at 15dps (typical starting geometry). Simply a matter of positioning on the table which can be accomplished in a number of ways. Asymmetric bevels, Flat bevels, Segmented bevels and Convex are also accomplishable with various techniques (be it a small/large knife, axe, chisel, scissors, etc.).

EDIT: A "belt sander" clamped to a work bench belt up, is a pretty fast inexpensive option that has worked for decades for me also. Simply a matter of being a smarter tool than the tool being used.
 
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scottc3 said:
I know Benchmade at one time used a bunch of Worksharp Ken Onion Editions to sharpen knives at shows. I'm sure they did not harm the blades they serviced. The blade grinding attachment would make it a better tool.
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I have the KO sharpener with belt grinder and it can definitely overheat the edge with finer grits, even on the slowest speed. You can avoid it by dunking the blade in cold water between passes, or by letting it air cool a bit between passes.

Vadim did a scientific test, but I believe he was using high speed and he was moving the blade too slowly.

 
Spey said:
Simply a matter of being a smarter tool than the tool being used.
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Ain't that the truth.

So it seems that a belt sander can offer greater speed, lower initial cost, and if slack operation is an option then perhaps better convex grinding; but, the operator needs to be attentive to heat buildup and work accordingly. Now I know one youtube video does not make a conclusive point but in the Worksharp test video posted here it seemed heat was less of an issue at lower grits--is there any truth to this beyond that video? I ask because my primary concern with buying any sharpening system is the ability to precisely change or reset a bevel using lower grits. As far as honing or polishing an edge I am confident in my freehand skills whether it be a strop, paper wheel, or my shapton pro 5k. I've reasonably evened out a hilariously uneven factory grind on one of my small Blue #2 ko-bocho kitchen knives but I don't mind the imperfections or the trial and error process if it's my knife.

Also, if there are any other threads here that already go over this material please feel free to point me in that direction. I have spent some time searching and looking around but I'm super busy right now and don't have a ton of extra time.
 
Yes, in my experience it's definitely true that courser grits generate less heat. That's simply because the grit particles are bigger and thus less grit is in contact with the blade at any one time.
 
3D Anvil said:
Yes, in my experience it's definitely true that courser grits generate less heat. That's simply because the grit particles are bigger and thus less grit is in contact with the blade at any one time.
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Agree with 3D Anvil,
and would add fresh belts and less pressure generate less heat because of same.
 
I tried to operate a sharpening business for 2 years and found that the majority of restuarants today have gone to simply replacing dull knives with more cheap knives. They do not believe it's worth their time or expense to maintain quality cutlery. Blame Amazon and Walmart. I had so many managers look at me like I was an idiot for suggesting they pay me to sharpen their knives. Many businesses have also learned that a great many of their employees will destroy a nice edge in less than a week by cutting food on a stainless table. I have seen this over and over. I worked with one chef who kept his own personal knives in a locked cabinet so no one else could touch them after having an employee use one for a pry tool to open a locked cabinet and snapping the blade in two. The kid could not understand why the knife would not withstand such treatment.
 
drail said:
I tried to operate a sharpening business for 2 years and found that the majority of restuarants today have gone to simply replacing dull knives with more cheap knives. They do not believe it's worth their time or expense to maintain quality cutlery. Blame Amazon and Walmart. I had so many managers look at me like I was an idiot for suggesting they pay me to sharpen their knives. Many businesses have also learned that a great many of their employees will destroy a nice edge in less than a week by cutting food on a stainless table. I have seen this over and over. I worked with one chef who kept his own personal knives in a locked cabinet so no one else could touch them after having an employee use one for a pry tool to open a locked cabinet and snapping the blade in two. The kid could not understand why the knife would not withstand such treatment.
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Ouch! It took me about 20 years, but I finally got my wife to stop using her good kitchen knives on cookie sheets and ceramic plates.
As far as restaurants go, it seems like bad economics to pay $15 for a new knife if you can get it sharpened to better-than-new for $10 or less. Or maybe they're buying knives for less than $10?
 
Yeah I kind of figured a lot of restaurants either didn't care or just had a basic sharpener on site. I'm really just hoping to find enough residential customers to make it worthwhile, or at least break even on some fun sharpening equipment. Admittedly I have been a bit surprised how many people I meet who are content to saw away with dull knives or they just force/push the edge through the food essentially "wedging" things apart. Once I started working with truly sharp knives I enjoyed cooking a lot more. Using a freshly sharpened usuba is such a joy as it glides through hard veggies like carrots or beets.

At the moment I'm leaning towards the Tormek setup but mostly because it's more useful for my own needs vs. a belt sander. I hate to part with money so these decisions always take a while.
 
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