Guided system which can achieve 15 dps (or less) on very small blades?

AFAustin

AFAustin

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I like my edges set at 15 degrees per side or a bit less, which allows for great performance as well as easy touch ups with the 15 dps setting on the Sharpmaker. I favor traditional folders and so am usually dealing with small blades, including very small pen blades.

My usual routine is to set the initial bevel on my Work Sharp KO, which is a great system and which I thoroughly enjoy. But I like to experiment with different systems and in particular would like to try a jig or guided system which can set bevels with great precision and consistency. The rub comes with my preferred low angles and the small---and very small---blades. Most guided systems just can't get to 15 dps or less on the small blades---the stone will always be blocked when trying to go that low.

I've tried the Lansky and the KME and can't get to 15 dps on the small blades (Ron at KME, who is a great guy with a quality system, even told me as much, but I'm stubborn and had to see for myself :o). I tried an Edge Pro, and maybe it's possible with that system, but the business about having to fashion your own "riser blocks" on a sophisticated and fairly high dollar kit put me off. I know that there is now a "small knife attachment" for the EP, and I just sent a message to Ben asking if it will allow 15 dps on the very small blades. Honestly, though, I had a hard time getting the hang of the EP when I had it, so I don't know if that's the best route for me.

What looks like the best solution so far is a Wicked Edge with extra long arms and the Tormek small knife jig. Here, Josh (razor-edge-knives), who has unbelievable skill at his craft, showed how with this system he was able to put a very low angle on a small Case jack I sent him: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ked-Edge-for-Small-Blades-Gen-I-or-II-(or-III) He even managed this with the pen blade! So this may well be the best answer to my question, but as always with the WEPS, the issue is cost. It really is a big initial expenditure, and the inevitable upgrades and accessories just add to that.

So, before I take that plunge, I wanted to ask: Is there another guided system which can achieve 15 dps or less on very small blades?

Thanks in advance for any wisdom.

Andrew
 
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Actually, if you can find a Lansky with the old style clamp with the notch for smaller blades than it will sharpen small blades at an angle lower than 15 degrees.
Here is a the link to a picture I posted in another thread with one of my Victorinox knives and using the 17 degrees setting but the actual angle with this blade is 13.3 degrees.
 
fvdk, thanks for your post and that is very interesting. I was thinking that finding one of the older models could be difficult, but I read in your linked thread where you'd found several on the big auction site.

From your pics, I'm unsure of the size of the blade on that Vic. How low an angle can the older notched Lanskys achieve on the smallest blades, e.g., a Vic Classic blade?

Andrew
 
Depending on how small 'very small blades' means, the older Lansky notched clamps may or may not quite get there. I used to have one of those clamps (gave it away), and the smallest blade I sharpened with it was done at the '20' setting, as the '17' was too low; that was with a pen blade on a '44 pattern Case stockman (pic below, blade-in-clamp). Having just measured it for reference, that blade is ~9/32" wide, spine-to-edge. As mentioned, something slightly larger, like the main spear blade on a SAK, can still be done at the '17' slot on the older clamp, though, at something slightly below a 15° angle.


David
 
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David, thanks. That would seem to eliminate even the older Lanskys from my quest for a guided system which can do 15 dps or less on the smallest pen blades.

Andrew
 
AFAustin said:
David, thanks. That would seem to eliminate even the older Lanskys from my quest for a guided system which can do 15 dps or less on the smallest pen blades.

Andrew
Click to expand...

Don't know if it's any consolation, Andrew, but the '44 pattern Case stockman I mentioned came out just fine, in using the '20' slot on the Lansky notched clamp. I just pulled that knife out to look at it again (& added the blade's width measurement to my earlier post), and it's nicely SHAAARRRP, with bevels about ~1mm wide as left by that sharpening. I don't know what the actual angle was, after sharpening, but I was more pleased with the result than I anticipated I'd be. With blades as small & thin as a pen blade, the slightly wider edge geometry isn't as much of a handicap as I'd previously assumed, and the overall thinness of the blade itself makes a big contribution to cutting ease, so long as the edge is crisply apexed.


David
 
David, thanks for the additional info. What you say makes sense. I guess I'm just trying to simplify a bit by keeping all my edges at 15 dps---so I don't have to remember which aren't! :D

Andrew
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
With blades as small & thin as a pen blade, the slightly wider edge geometry isn't as much of a handicap as I'd previously assumed, and the overall thinness of the blade itself makes a big contribution to cutting ease, so long as the edge is crisply apexed.


David
Click to expand...

I fully agree and for me it is simple to remember as I sharpen all my Victorinox knives with the Lansky.
 
Gentlemen, this is all good information and maybe the answer is to reconcile myself to the notion of a more obtuse angle on the very small blades.

But, I'm not there yet. So back to the question in my original post: Is there a guided system, apart from the WEPS + attachments, which can do 15 dps (or less) on the very small blades?

Thanks,

Andrew
 
AFAustin said:
So back to the question in my original post: Is there a guided system, apart from the WEPS + attachments, which can do 15 dps (or less) on the very small blades?

Thanks,

Andrew
Click to expand...

I don't think there is at least I can not remember ever seen one.
If you look at the KME small knife clamp and see how thin it already is in order to accommodate the 17 degree angle, It seems not very logical that there would be a system on the market that would have even thinner clamps as that would make it very fragile and would pretty much limit it's use for anything other than very small knives.
 
US edges are steep edges :) European edges are not so steep.

Scandinavian traditional edges holds around 10 degrees per side. We have shapening tools that go down to aound 5 degree per side.

Thomas
 
Simple solution to this Andrew... Send in all your blades that are "thick" behind the edge to me to regrind, then you can sharpen for years on the Spyderco Sharpmaker at the 15 dps angle without issues! ;)

You also may want to look into the CBN rods for the sharpmaker, seems like they are reasonably quick.
 
razor-edge-knives said:
Simple solution to this Andrew... Send in all your blades that are "thick" behind the edge to me to regrind, then you can sharpen for years on the Spyderco Sharpmaker at the 15 dps angle without issues! ;)

You also may want to look into the CBN rods for the sharpmaker, seems like they are reasonably quick.
Click to expand...

Don't know why I didn't even think of that; it's a good idea. I don't have the diamond/CBN rods for my SM; but I do have an A.G. Russell 'Field Sharpener' V-crock setup that came with diamond rods. It's a small set, with the rods being only 4" in length. Even then, I've used them to re-bevel a few blades to 30° inclusive (this is the pre-set angle for this set), including the S30V blade on my Sebenza (large). Took about 45 minutes or so, just taking it easy with light strokes. On small & thin traditional blades in simple steels (or even in something like D2 found on Queen's traditional knives), a setup like this could get it done in no time with diamond or CBN rods. Very small blades, like a pen blade, might even be done in just a handful of passes per side, in fact.


David
 
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Something using the Edgepro type configuration should support low angles. Anything with a clamp is going to be more of an issue firstly because the blade doesn't protrude so far and secondly because the thickness of the clamp is added to that of the blade. To get down to 10 degrees or so would really need the clamp thickness to be something like 1mm.
 
Thanks, gents. Any thoughts on the CBN rods vs. the diamond rods for the Sharpmaker? I've been hard pressed to find any information explaining how they differ as to results produced.

Andrew
 
AFAustin said:
Thanks, gents. Any thoughts on the CBN rods vs. the diamond rods for the Sharpmaker? I've been hard pressed to find any information explaining how they differ as to results produced.

Andrew
Click to expand...

There's a LONG thread over on Spyderco's own forum, originally posted by Cliff Stamp. In terms of details of the CBN rods and how they compare, that might be first place to look:

https://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=63254

I sort of get the impression that either could be used in lieu of the other, although he sometimes gives the impression the CBN rods are more aggressive than the diamond (at one point suggesting the diamond rods might go between CBN and the Medium ceramics, in sequence). Might also be differences in durability of each, maybe due to how each abrasive is bonded to the rods. It's a very long read (and I haven't yet read all of it), so it's hard for me to say what the significant differences are between each.

I will say this: if you're mainly looking for something to set bevels on smaller blades at the 30° set angle, the diamond should be more than enough. In fact, if the CBN is more aggressive, I'd likely prefer using the slightly less-aggressive diamond for very small & thin blades. Too much grit can really chew up a small blade in simple steel. For some perspective, I usually use a DMT Fine (600/25µ) for such jobs, as those edges will refine much, much more easily after setting the bevels. Even at this relatively fine grit, diamond is still diamond, and it'll still reshape a very small & thin edge very quickly.


David
 
David, thanks. Yes, I remember skimming the Cliff Stamp thread in the Spydie forum a while back, and you're right---it's a looong thread. Thanks for pointing out the parts which shed some light on my question.

I confess I still can't understand why Sal makes diamond and CBN, which appear to produce similar results, but hasn't come out with one or two which are less aggressive and bridge the gap between diamond/CBN and the brown medium rods. I asked him about it, at your suggestion as I recall, here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...on-for-the-Sharpmaker?p=14402065#post14402065 and he said he wasn't aware of much interest in it.....oh well.

Andrew
 
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Andrew,

You might want to try the rubber band trick suggested by Chuck sometime ago. It changes the angle to be slightly lower than 30 inclusive. Use that to reprofile, then touch up with normal 30 inclusive.

What it means is to link both rods with rubber band, i.e. pinching them together.
 
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