Gun confiscations when the SHTF?

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Feb 5, 2005
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This thread on Rod Hood's survival forum deals with gun confiscations in New Orleans after Katrina. It reminded me of discussions we've had on this forum regarding obstacles to personal safety thrown up by government authorities after SHTF situations.

My brother is a LEO and I know it's easy to sit back when you're NOT in the room and NOT in danger to criticize law enforcement, but given the longstanding police (and municipal government) corruption all over Louisiana, the actions taken by police (and National Guardsmen, and private security mercenaries) are easy for me to label criminal.

The NRA agrees and has been fighting New Orleans in court (article). They also produced this video showing interviews with individuals who had their weapons confiscated (and worse) after the storm.

I know some folks consider the NRA to be "extremist" so if you want a moderate-to-liberal take on this issue, this YouTube video is of an ABC News broadcast that was taped right after the storm. Most would agree ABC News is hardly a pawn of the NRA.
 
1) I think the people responsible, perhaps including police brass, should be prosecuted for stealing people's means of self-defense. They even knew they themselves were in no position to provide even the poor substitute for it that they normally did.

2) This topic is going to be hard to fit into Wilderness & Survival Skills.
"How to beat off a home invasion when your shotgun is sitting in a police locker." Nah.

I don't trust the Political Arena to discuss it without politicizing it. (Duh.)
How about Knives (Weapons), News, and your Views?
 
On the contrary, I don't think the NRA is radical enough.

True-in-a-way. But their mass-market approach is what brings in the big bucks, which is what drives their Federal legislative effectiveness, without which ideological purity would be useless, anyway.

"Politics is the art of the possible."
 
1) 2) This topic is going to be hard to fit into Wilderness & Survival Skills.
"How to beat off a home invasion when your shotgun is sitting in a police locker." Nah.

I don't trust the Political Arena to discuss it without politicizing it. (Duh.)
How about Knives (Weapons), News, and your Views?


I'll defer to your judgment, EB. I was thinking of the link to the general issue, raised before here on Wilderness and Survival, of authorities, rightly or wrongly, knowingly or unknowingly, doing 'stuff' that makes survival in SHTF situations more difficult for individuals who don't strictly speaking need help.

But, I agree this can get political quick... Sorry if this ends up a hassle. :o
 
True-in-a-way. But their mass-market approach is what brings in the big bucks, which is what drives their Federal legislative effectiveness, without which ideological purity would be useless, anyway.

"Politics is the art of the possible."

That's fair enough.

I go to the NRA url from time to time to check out their latest news and find out what the NeoStalinists have been up to lately.
 
Well, it does fit here. Maintaining posession of firearms during a survival situation for personal security and defense is on line with forum topic. It is just like walking a greased railroad track though. Pretty easy to slip off.

I've gone through several direct hits by hurricanes in the Florida panhandle. WHile I never had to use my firearms to defend myself my family and property just the fact that I had them, and it was no secret, provided a "zone of security" around the block where I lived. Looters didn't come around and even the fly-by-night hustlers why prey on folks with their cleanup and repair "services" gave my end of the street a wide berth. Facing the aftermath of a natural disaster is bad enough without facing the predators who come around afterward looking for an easy mark.

Would I have surrendered them to the local police if asked? Mmmmm... Probably not. At best I might have handed them an old single shot Stevens .22 and an H&R .20 gague which had seen better days. Then put them thru hell with documentation, reciepts, identification, etc. And kept my means of self defense. What if they had forced the issue with a thorough search? That might have gotten nasty.

Codger
 
I'm obsessing over this issue... I just found this article from Reason Magazine (which I highly recommend -- it's political stance is "#$*% ALL politicians"):

In the nearly two weeks since Hurricane Katrina, the government of New Orleans has devolved from its traditional status as an elective kleptocracy into something far more dangerous: an anarcho-tyranny that refuses to protect the public from criminals while preventing people from protecting themselves. At the orders of New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, the New Orleans Police, the National Guard, the Oklahoma National Guard, and U.S. Marshals have begun breaking into homes at gunpoint, confiscating their lawfully-owned firearms, and evicting the residents. "No one is allowed to be armed. We're going to take all the guns," says P. Edwin Compass III, the superintendent of police.

Last week, thousands of New Orleanians huddled in the Superdome and the Convention Center got a taste of anarcho-tyranny. Everyone entering those buildings was searched for firearms. So for a few days, they lived in a small world without guns. As in other such worlds, the weaker soon became the prey of the stronger. Tuesday's New Orleans Times-Picayune reported some of the grim results, as an Arkansas National Guardsman showed the reporter dozens of bodies rotting in a non-functional freezer.

In the rest of the city, some police officers abandoned their posts, while others joined the looting spree. For several days, the ones who stayed on the job did not act to stop the looting that was going on right in front of them. To the extent that any homes or businesses were saved, the saviors were the many good citizens of New Orleans who defended their families, homes, and businesses with their own firearms.

These people were operating within their legal rights. The law authorizes citizen's arrests for any felony, and in the past (in the 1964 case McKellar v. Mason), a Louisiana court held that shooting a property thief in the spine was a legitimate citizen's arrest.

The aftermath of the hurricane has featured prominent stories of citizens legitimately defending lives and property. New Orleans lies on the north side of the Mississippi River, and the city of Algiers is on the south. The Times-Picayune detailed how dozens of neighbors in one part of Algiers had formed a militia. After a car-jacking and an attack on a home by looters, the neighborhood recognized the need for a common defense; they shared firearms, took turns on patrol, and guarded the elderly. Although the initial looting had resulted in a gun battle, once the patrols began, the militia never had to fire a shot. Likewise, the Garden District of New Orleans, one of the city's top tourist attractions, was protected by armed residents.

The good gun-owning citizens of New Orleans and the surrounding areas ought to be thanked for helping to save some of their city after Mayor Nagin, incoherent and weeping, had fled to Baton Rouge. Yet instead these citizens are being victimized by a new round of home invasions and looting, these ones government-organized, for the purpose of firearms confiscation.

The Mayor and Governor do have the legal authority to mandate evacuation, but failure to comply is a misdemeanor; so the authority to use force to compel evacuation goes no further than the power to effect a misdemeanor arrest. The preemptive confiscation of every private firearm in the city far exceeds any reasonable attempt to carry out misdemeanor arrests for persons who disobey orders to leave.

Louisiana statutory law does allow some restrictions on firearms during extraordinary conditions. One statute says that after the Governor proclaims a state of emergency (as Governor Blanco has done), "the chief law enforcement officer of the political subdivision affected by the proclamation may...promulgate orders...regulating and controlling the possession, storage, display, sale, transport and use of firearms, other dangerous weapons and ammunition." But the statute does not, and could not, supersede the Louisiana Constitution, which declares that "The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person."

The power of "regulating and controlling" is not the same as the power of "prohibiting and controlling." The emergency statute actually draws this distinction in its language, which refers to "prohibiting" price-gouging, sale of alcohol, and curfew violations, but only to "regulating and controlling" firearms. Accordingly, the police superintendent's order "prohibiting" firearms possession is beyond his lawful authority. It is an illegal order.

Last week, we saw an awful truth in New Orleans: A disaster can bring out predators ready to loot, rampage, and pillage the moment that they have the opportunity. Now we are seeing another awful truth: There is no shortage of police officers and National Guardsmen who will obey illegal orders to threaten peaceful citizens at gunpoint and confiscate their firearms.
 
I think that my firearm ownership is directly related to wilderness survival.
If a catastrophic event happened near me , How did they say it a few thousand years ago ? Molon Lave <sp?> rough translation : come and take them , but I ain't giving them to you without a fight and it's gonna cost ya.

If tshtf , I'm heading for the woods. A few suplies on the way and I'm self sufficient. Any riff raff that comes along will be given two options.
Sorry to be so short , but , that's the way I feel and it's been one of "those" days.

Phil
 
In Miami after Hurricane Andrew personal weapons kept us all safe.

I'd never give up my weapon without a fight leaving my family defenceless when I needed it most.
Cops,National guard,ect should never obey unconstitional commands.
If they break the law,risk my life for their paycheck they should expect no quarter.
Why would anyone take some old ladies only means of self defence?
IT IS CRIMMINAL.
I'm sick of liberals taking the innocents means of defence while making excuses for violent criminals.
Judges and lawmakers should be personally civilly liable for their stupid biased unconstitional actions.

Vote Clinton/Obama.
New Orleans type gun Confiscation,Nationally
It's for the children.

Do you really believe the government will "Give" you free anything?
The government can only give you what they took in the first place.
To take your own money out of your pocket then declare they will "Give" you Healthcare
is nothing but bribing you with your own money for your vote.
Don't be a sucker.
 
The one good thing to come out of the NewOrleans/Katrina situation is it showed everyone that the govt is NOT to be trusted - or even relied upon - when your lives are in danger.
 
Well, this is one forum where the discussions remain mutually respectful. Let's stay with it.

As far as Reason goes, it goes libertarian, which means, yes, it snipes at any (other) political viewpoint, and those in power are easier targets than those standing by with their morals unsullied by having to get the job done.

Tuesday's New Orleans Times-Picayune reported some of the grim results, as an Arkansas National Guardsman showed the reporter dozens of bodies rotting in a non-functional freezer.

No. Didn't happen. The rapes, murders, and deaths were largely a media fiction. Conditions were really, really poor. But the victims retained more dignity than the media, hungry for authorities to criticize, gave them credit for.

It is true, though, that if you walk a forest trail with no thought for defense against even the most innocent of predators, you can get hurt. Bringing your own claws is intelligent, even when the authorities proclaim public land to be gun-free zones.

Have any of those legislating no-gun policies in wilderness areas spent much time in wilderness, outside of their own back lawns?
 
The firearm is a must in survival situations, no matter what the reason for it's use. The world (this country) is fraught with dangerous people from without and from within who seek to prey on those that are defenseless and without a firearm in our possession, we are victims for these bad people to destroy.

From here, the political side of things should be evident to all and doesn't really need to be brought into this forum.
 
I will never forget the news clip of a cop body slamming a little old lady in her own home and taking away her revolver. That spoke volumes to anyone watching.
The lesson learned: NEVER open your door to anyone, LEO or not, after a catastrophe.
My state has passed a law this year that bars firearms confiscations in an emergency, the NRA helped push it. They work on the state level as well as the National.
 
I live in a fairly rural county in the Mid-South, and my local law enforcement has confirmed my right to defend my home and family through whatever means neccesary. I arrested an intruder/trespasser one night and held him for law enforcement. The officer did agree and warn the trespasser that he was very lucky to have not been shot instead of arrested. And that I was within my rights to have shot him. Now this county LEO was not a judge and jury but they are for the most part like minded. I realize this does not hold true for the rest of the nation.

Codger
 
Well, I fall into group of people who thinks the NRA is a little much (yes, I know, I'm probably the only one), but even so I hope they win their lawsuit. The thing that I find particularly odious about these kinds of bannings and confiscations is that they undermine the case for more reasonable and less onerous forms of gun control. I don't really like the argument that licensing or registration is a precursor to some kind of large scale gun seziure, but events like this tend to make it seem more credible.

NB: The above is not intended as an argument in favour of gun control, rather it is a fundamental repudiation of this particular kind. Please take it as an agreement, of a sort.
 
On the positive side, many states have responded by makeing or strengthening laws against confiscating weapons, and the LA courts have issued rulings that affirm the individual right to keep and bear arms. I'm not saying nobody is ever going to try such a stunt again, but the negative response after NOLA definetely showed them the bad pres that was awaitin', and NOBODY wants that. If Parker goes our way, we'll have even more dry ground to stand on.
 
It's a little off topic, but the official line on the potential "bird flu pandemic" is that the gov't, the CDC, the hospitals, etc. are not going to be in a position to really help anyone.

The task is just too large.

This may be the most likely SHTF scenerio that we will see in the future.

Imagine millions in the US infected and dying,
no treatment except for the symptoms,
hospitals quarantined,
people afraid to go to work or school for fear of infection,
no work = no money

Makes you want to stock up on some water, can goods, and ammo.
 
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