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- Oct 1, 2002
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what is gunting? i have never heard this word before i read it in this web site.
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gunting???
- Thread starter waynejitsu
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Messages
- 179
The Gunting is of course a Spyderco MBC knife designed by Bram Frank. Gunting is a Philipino word and the literal translation of gunting is "'scissors' or passing block with a limb destruction."1 I have trained with the Gunting and the gunting motion is a scissor like motion with your other hand/arm using the ramp or head of the Gunting to disable a limb. I think someone more qualified than I will be along soon to answer your question in more detail. Please see website footnoted for any other FMA related definitions for example, the word tusok will also be mentioned in this forum as well.
1 http://www.baronginstitute.com/terminology/terminology.html
1 http://www.baronginstitute.com/terminology/terminology.html
Two IMPORTANT things I have to add: 1) it is designed to be used non-lethally while it is closed, 2) It can be opened kinectically, which takes a little explaination. The exposed "horn" that sticks out can be "hooked" on an opponents body and used to pull open the blade. It is very fast and kind of fun!
I could go on with a bunch of unimportant stuff, but wpc37203 covered the rest of the basics.
I could go on with a bunch of unimportant stuff, but wpc37203 covered the rest of the basics.
Hmmm I see I'm not needed to respond anymore..There's enough of you out there that actually understand the usage of the tool and it's concepts...very very cool..
The Filipinos have many connotations to their wording...usage of the word changes the intent..for example a "Gunting" can be a scissoring action, a limb destruction, an escalation in the use of force within the flow...a "GUNT" it self can be with follow through..bounce off...or hit and retract...or full open and close...
For kinetic opening, KinOp.. picture a turnstyle..like in a subway..the faster you push it ot hit it the faster it moves away from you..
The impact of engagement on the ramp forces the blade to open...
of course never do this on your own leg..you Can accomplish much by doing it...like slicing your pants and leg open...
therefore DO NOT OPEN THE GUNTING ON YOUR OWN LEG...
unless you are into extreme body modification....
WHY Gunting? Because I study and teach Filipino Martial Art..because it fits the action..as do Filipino and some chinese descriptions of martial arts actions..The title is the action...how simple and direct!
be safe
Bram
The Filipinos have many connotations to their wording...usage of the word changes the intent..for example a "Gunting" can be a scissoring action, a limb destruction, an escalation in the use of force within the flow...a "GUNT" it self can be with follow through..bounce off...or hit and retract...or full open and close...
For kinetic opening, KinOp.. picture a turnstyle..like in a subway..the faster you push it ot hit it the faster it moves away from you..
The impact of engagement on the ramp forces the blade to open...
of course never do this on your own leg..you Can accomplish much by doing it...like slicing your pants and leg open...
therefore DO NOT OPEN THE GUNTING ON YOUR OWN LEG...
unless you are into extreme body modification....
WHY Gunting? Because I study and teach Filipino Martial Art..because it fits the action..as do Filipino and some chinese descriptions of martial arts actions..The title is the action...how simple and direct!
be safe
Bram
Listen to the Man when he tells you this! When the Gunting first came out, there were stories aplenty about people who did not and had to go to the Emergency Room for stitching up and other such assistance after learning the hard way that Bram knew what he was talking about. By the wqay, practising kinetic openings is what they make the red handled drones for. They do not have sharp blades.
Mr Fuller has an excellent point..
I've said it so much, so many times I sometimes for get the mantra...
Use a Drone..A drone is more imp[ortant than the live blade..get a DRone....
ONLY practice with a DRONE..The Gunting Drone colored RED for safety recognition,( as with firearms!) is designed for practicing Gunting concepts & self-defense...
it's called a DRone because as with Drone bees that have no sting the DRone Gunting has no edge....
be safe..
Bram
No turkeys were hurt in this Thanksgiving Gunting discussion & demo..
I've said it so much, so many times I sometimes for get the mantra...
Use a Drone..A drone is more imp[ortant than the live blade..get a DRone....
ONLY practice with a DRONE..The Gunting Drone colored RED for safety recognition,( as with firearms!) is designed for practicing Gunting concepts & self-defense...
it's called a DRone because as with Drone bees that have no sting the DRone Gunting has no edge....
be safe..
Bram
No turkeys were hurt in this Thanksgiving Gunting discussion & demo..
1. The Gunting is a gread EDC and utility knife, IMHO.
2. I appreciate the way the Compression lock on the Gunting is set-up. This, again IMHO, is superior to the way it is set up on the other Spydies (sorry Sal). It does, however, occasionally pinch you.
3. I always explain it to people by saying it is like a phaser from Star Trek. It provides non-lethal (potentially) and lethal options when responding (defensively) to force. I like the philosophy Bram espouses too.
You will probably read some criticism of the Gunting that goes something like this. "If I were in danger and in fear for my life...why wouldn't I pull out a regular knife? Why would I try to pinch or grab someone? If my life is not in danger, then by drawing the Gunting...even if I use it closed...I've pulled a deadly weapon and escalated the fight. By doing that, I've become the aggressor, haven't I?"
This, to me at least, is a specious argument. I would never draw any weapon...deadly or otherwise...unless in fear of life and limb. If I have to protect myself from a bad guy in such a situation...whether he lives or dies becomes irrelevant. What is relevant is that I not die.
The best way to not die may not be for the bad guy to die. Instead, the best way to live is to make sure that his weapon is never brought to bear against you. The Gunting (and some of the techniques explained by Bram) allow you to, in theory, disarm the bad guy and live (or render him unable to continue any attack...or allow you time to escape). The philosophy, to me at least, is that cutting someone is not always the best way to disarm them. I could go to the bad guy's body and he could be cutting me at the same time. Remember, the goal is not necessarily to cut/kill him...the goal is for you to live. If, however, by pinching, slamming, hitting, cutting tendons...I can make the BG drop his weapon...then I stand a better chance of living...and of not being harmed. Again, whether he lives or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is how I can render his weapon useless. The Gunting gives me more options in this regard.
In essence, and I know I'm getting long-winded and repetitve, I might stand a better chance of survival if I pinch his finger and bring him to the ground than if I stab him in the abdomen. At least that's my understanding. If Bram would come to Houston...maybe I'd understand things better...Hint...Hint.
2. I appreciate the way the Compression lock on the Gunting is set-up. This, again IMHO, is superior to the way it is set up on the other Spydies (sorry Sal). It does, however, occasionally pinch you.
3. I always explain it to people by saying it is like a phaser from Star Trek. It provides non-lethal (potentially) and lethal options when responding (defensively) to force. I like the philosophy Bram espouses too.
You will probably read some criticism of the Gunting that goes something like this. "If I were in danger and in fear for my life...why wouldn't I pull out a regular knife? Why would I try to pinch or grab someone? If my life is not in danger, then by drawing the Gunting...even if I use it closed...I've pulled a deadly weapon and escalated the fight. By doing that, I've become the aggressor, haven't I?"
This, to me at least, is a specious argument. I would never draw any weapon...deadly or otherwise...unless in fear of life and limb. If I have to protect myself from a bad guy in such a situation...whether he lives or dies becomes irrelevant. What is relevant is that I not die.
The best way to not die may not be for the bad guy to die. Instead, the best way to live is to make sure that his weapon is never brought to bear against you. The Gunting (and some of the techniques explained by Bram) allow you to, in theory, disarm the bad guy and live (or render him unable to continue any attack...or allow you time to escape). The philosophy, to me at least, is that cutting someone is not always the best way to disarm them. I could go to the bad guy's body and he could be cutting me at the same time. Remember, the goal is not necessarily to cut/kill him...the goal is for you to live. If, however, by pinching, slamming, hitting, cutting tendons...I can make the BG drop his weapon...then I stand a better chance of living...and of not being harmed. Again, whether he lives or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is how I can render his weapon useless. The Gunting gives me more options in this regard.
In essence, and I know I'm getting long-winded and repetitve, I might stand a better chance of survival if I pinch his finger and bring him to the ground than if I stab him in the abdomen. At least that's my understanding. If Bram would come to Houston...maybe I'd understand things better...Hint...Hint.
LynnBob, sounds like you got a pretty good grip on it to me!
Spyderco: Sorry guys, but the compression lock on the Gunting has spoiled me for all the other knives where you put the lock on the other side.
The Gunting is unique in that is is both a non-lethal and lethal weapon, and can be in either mode almost as fast as you can think of it being there. It is going to cause some problems in the legal system until some precedents are set. We'll just have to weather the storm. Hopefully we can do so with out to much disruption to anyone's life.
Bram, you got your court room script ready?
Spyderco: Sorry guys, but the compression lock on the Gunting has spoiled me for all the other knives where you put the lock on the other side.
The Gunting is unique in that is is both a non-lethal and lethal weapon, and can be in either mode almost as fast as you can think of it being there. It is going to cause some problems in the legal system until some precedents are set. We'll just have to weather the storm. Hopefully we can do so with out to much disruption to anyone's life.
Bram, you got your court room script ready?
It would indeed be interesting to find a precedent for the use of a knife as a less-lethal tool. I carried an Al Mar SERE folder, the original one made in the 80's, with its 4.5 inch blade and HUGE handle, largely because I could use it as an impact weapon both before and after the blade was opened. I never had the opportunity to set any legal precedents, however, and if I did, I would have had the advantage of being a peace officer, carrying a pistol, so any action taken with any impact weapon would have truly been less lethal than a firearm.
Lynn Bob: you get the GOLD STAR...really..Rex G..you and Lunumbra are also star getters..THANK YOU ALL!
You guys grasped the point of the tool..Ethics, morality. saving lives..especially your own..even from your own actions..
and you got to the heart of the "oh but " responses..
AS for precedent? The more LEO's that use it..The more LEO's agency guys, agents and common guys who use the tool..and come back with the same response.."hell Bram, I never got the tool open.. I used it as an impact tool to end the situation.." The more it will be accepted..
The more its adopted usage by agency and organizational wide..the more the truth in its actions and usage will be set in stone..
Ok..not to start the whole discussion again..
I've gone round the bush too many times with those that can't see the point...
The Gunting is the ONLY tool designed to be used in throughout the force continuum..A balisong can do it but it wasn't design to that..it just happened to work out,,, KARMA..whatever..
THe GUNTING WAS designed that way..
As Dan Johnson of Guns & Ammmo said in his column "the Shooters Tool Box" about the GUNTING:I'm paraphrasing cause I don't have it right here!
Ok..picture a Leatherman tool. Closed its certainly not lethal..Open up the pliers to grab someone, pinch someone it's still a non-lethal tool and no court nor jury would argue that point with you.. and it's not till you open up the other tool enclosed, the actual blade does it become a lethal action tool..Its the same with a Gunting..Closed its a non lethal, non cutting control and impact tool..and its not till its open can it do cutting,yet even in lethal mode its designed to do non lethal stuff...
NOOO using any other edged tool AKA Knife for an impact tool could still be you drew a knife.. a stupid argument in my book of course..cause till OPEN its not a knife..IMHO...but in design consideration and in legalese..they were designed as knives..designed to be opened and to cut with...
We, the GUNTING family of edged tools and non edged tools were designed to be used closed as an impact tool FIRST.
Big point.. an intent point..a legal consideration point..design intent..usage intent..
As with GLOCK..we're starting to make headway into the world..
Agencies and people arestarting to listen intently..
No tool is perfect or the only answer..
But we offer options..
Options you can access within the flow..
cause I want you to go home to your family if you need to use the tool as a SDR Tool..
If its EDC this is a mooot point..
be safe
Bram
You guys grasped the point of the tool..Ethics, morality. saving lives..especially your own..even from your own actions..
and you got to the heart of the "oh but " responses..
AS for precedent? The more LEO's that use it..The more LEO's agency guys, agents and common guys who use the tool..and come back with the same response.."hell Bram, I never got the tool open.. I used it as an impact tool to end the situation.." The more it will be accepted..
The more its adopted usage by agency and organizational wide..the more the truth in its actions and usage will be set in stone..
Ok..not to start the whole discussion again..
I've gone round the bush too many times with those that can't see the point...
The Gunting is the ONLY tool designed to be used in throughout the force continuum..A balisong can do it but it wasn't design to that..it just happened to work out,,, KARMA..whatever..
THe GUNTING WAS designed that way..
As Dan Johnson of Guns & Ammmo said in his column "the Shooters Tool Box" about the GUNTING:I'm paraphrasing cause I don't have it right here!
Ok..picture a Leatherman tool. Closed its certainly not lethal..Open up the pliers to grab someone, pinch someone it's still a non-lethal tool and no court nor jury would argue that point with you.. and it's not till you open up the other tool enclosed, the actual blade does it become a lethal action tool..Its the same with a Gunting..Closed its a non lethal, non cutting control and impact tool..and its not till its open can it do cutting,yet even in lethal mode its designed to do non lethal stuff...
NOOO using any other edged tool AKA Knife for an impact tool could still be you drew a knife.. a stupid argument in my book of course..cause till OPEN its not a knife..IMHO...but in design consideration and in legalese..they were designed as knives..designed to be opened and to cut with...
We, the GUNTING family of edged tools and non edged tools were designed to be used closed as an impact tool FIRST.
Big point.. an intent point..a legal consideration point..design intent..usage intent..
As with GLOCK..we're starting to make headway into the world..
Agencies and people arestarting to listen intently..
No tool is perfect or the only answer..
But we offer options..
Options you can access within the flow..
cause I want you to go home to your family if you need to use the tool as a SDR Tool..
If its EDC this is a mooot point..
be safe
Bram
Hey, Bram, I saw that you had a forum over in the Uechi-Ryu.com bulletin board and I left you a greeting. I stop over there occasionally to post on John Thurston's Western Martial History Forum, mostly on military history, but some on politics as well. They had dropped your forum for a bit, but I see that it is back again. Great. All of you Gunting fans ought to look in. It is at http://xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/. There are some interesting fora there, especially for those interested in self defense.