gunting.

[DANTHEMAN123]

what the deal with the gunting knife opening mechanism, everywhere i look it just says 'kinetic'?? kinetic is movement but how EXACTLY does it work. i know its mean to be used closed too.

its not like a wave function is it. it doesnt mean you flick it open like a knife with a loose pivot. if so whats the spike for other than closed impact use?

oh yeah, and kerambits are cool. so are waves,ronins and yojimbos. r the latter really that much sharper than other spydercos?

 

[Lucky Bob]

The "kinetic" bit means that you can open it on your oponent's body. If you're using the gunting as a yakiwara stick, you can just regrip so the tip is toward you and your fingers are out of the way, and just rip the back of the closed blade towards you, along the oponent's neck. Voila, 'tis open.

Short version: it's a Wave you use on your oponent, instead of the hem of your pocket.

 

[DANTHEMAN123]

thanks for that.

 

[FullerH]

But, for God's sake, do not try it on yourself! Those who have done so have wound up in the ER for stitches.

 

[DANTHEMAN123]

apologies 4 all the questions , but whats the idea of a yakiwara stick? and why would you want to open a knife on somebody else?

 

[Lucky Bob]

I'm not trained with the yakiwara, but as one of my old sensei's showed me with his gunting, you can use the knife, closed, with the thumbhole "spike" coming out from between your first and middle fingers as a pressure-point/grappling tool. You can strike using the butt or spike, you can apply continuous pressure with either, you can use the butt for joint manipulation (catch someone's wrist between your lower forearm and the butt, they ain't going nowhere, I know firsthand!), etc.
Since it's used to bridge the reaction-gap between bare hands and blade, you want to be able to escalate it quickly, if the need arises. Thus, since you've already got it in your hand (closed) and making contact with the oponent, you can segue from one to another just by "ripping" it along your opponent.

 

[Dijos]

the whole point of opening the gunting on someone is in relation to escalation of force; closed, it is used as a striking tool, and one hell of a joint locking tool as well. If you present the tool closed, and need to use the blade (opponent presents weapon) , it opens where and when you like. c/o www.cssdsc.com

 

[psy-ops]

I have respect for Bram Frank (Gunting designer) mostly for his thoughts on knife fighting. he opened my eyes many times.


The Gunting was hailed as a huge transition in the knife industry, when it first came out. Everyone on these boards were buying them and talking them up. I waited out the hype.

The gunting peetered out. The whole escalation of force thing, I think is the reason. To me if you take out your knife as a yawara stick you just took out a lethal weapon. You can either be killed justifiably, if you are in the wrong or you can kill justifiably.

I am not against using a knife as an impact weapon due to time constraints but almost any knife can do that. Also the ramp kinetic opener is TOO BIG.

 

[Lucky Bob]

http://www.themartialist.com/0703/gunting.htm

There's The Martialist's take on the Gunting, take it or leave it.

 

[Dijos]

I have respect for Bram Frank (Gunting designer) mostly for his thoughts on knife fighting. he opened my eyes many times.


The Gunting was hailed as a huge transition in the knife industry, when it first came out. Everyone on these boards were buying them and talking them up. I waited out the hype.

The gunting peetered out. The whole escalation of force thing, I think is the reason. To me if you take out your knife as a yawara stick you just took out a lethal weapon. You can either be killed justifiably, if you are in the wrong or you can kill justifiably.

I am not against using a knife as an impact weapon due to time constraints but almost any knife can do that. Also the ramp kinetic opener is TOO BIG.

I will respectfully disagree, although I concede that the escalation of force thing was under constant criticism.

I thin that the reason the the gunting died was a shift in desires of the buying public, specifically in MBC training.

What I am about to say is probably going to get me flamed, but I've been thinking it for a long time.

People are lazy when it comes to training. Bram and the Gunting suffered for it, Spyderco's MBC suffered for it, Mike Janich suffered for it, and I'll say that Southnarc and the Pikal will suffer just the same. Using a knife effectively for self defense is hard; much harder than a gun, and needs training to defend yourself well. Lots of folks just want "ninjitsu in a pocket". No matter how advanced folding knives get, an endura will do just fine for the most part, but the training will make all the difference.

A few years back, everybody was super gung ho on MBC, and training and trainers. It has passed, for the most part, and is just the natural progression of things.

YMMV,

Joe

 

[psy-ops]

dijos,

Your point is a good one and accurate. People flock to these killer designs because of the grest masters. then realize that the training it takes and the hype disapears.

From my perspective though I train and I respect above mentioned. But I think that packaging a knife in a specific fighting style pigeons holds the trainers. They get stereotyped and fade out. The karambit is going the same way.

Classic multi purpose styles work best from marketing to training.

 

[Michael Janich]

Dear Joe:

I'm not going to "flame" you for your comments, but I do disagree. Knives that work well continue to work well long after the buzz has subsided. People that actually train to keep themselves safe also continue to do so long after it's cool to do so.

The bottom line is that the number of people actually committed to developing defensive knife skills is and always has been pretty small. Those that follow the hype of the latest design are like the folks looking for the magic diet pill. When they realize that EVERY design, no matter how innovative or cool, requires training to use properly, they lose interest and the buzz dies.

I applaud Spyderco for its efforts to promote MBC and to offer purpose-designed defensive knives. They suspected from the start that the market would be small and they were right. Their efforts, however, are no less noble because of that.

Stay safe,

 

[psy-ops]

Mr Janich, Does designing a specialized fighting knife, pigeon hole or limit one's martial expression?

I often see other designers get stuck in one design and then you don't hear much from them: Caracci, Emerson, Tarani, Frank.

I want to be clear I have respect for these masters, and I understand that I am not one of their current students, so I wouldn't be privy to their development.

 

[Dijos]

Thanks for your input, chris.
Mike-I totally agree about the dedicated being and staying dedicated, but a few years back, training was all the rage (at least lip service was), but There was very much talking (on these and other boards), you'd have thought that the market was enormous and endless, but when the rubber hit the road, it didn't turn out that way. It was surprising to me, but I haven't been involved in the knife/gun community for very long (9-10 years) so my vision in regards to these things is somewhat naive, I guess. I certainly applaud spyderco's (and your) approach to sensible knife defensive use, especially as Spyderco is not at all a "covert de-animator" kind of company. I'm glad to see you around these parts again, BTW.

 

[ginshun]

Does anyone think that carring a knife that is specifically designed and made as a self defence weapon leaves the user open for prosecution should they indeed have to use it for self defense?

Prosecutor: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you see here the knife the defendant used to "defend himself" a knife that was specifically made for the sole purpose of cutting other human beings" and so on and so forth.


Obvously one who hope that before useing a knife for defense you have properly assesed the situation and made good decisions, but still, it seems like asking for trouble to carry around a Gunting or a Civilian, or similarly designed "self defense knife"

Thoughts?

 

[psy-ops]

I am in the camp that thinks design choice implies forethought.

But alot of the market designer/trainer people are shooting for is the police-tactical-SF. They also get a lot of wanna be's and a FEW serious civilians.

 

[Michael Janich]

Great comments, guys. Thanks for an interesting thread.

Here are my thoughts on some of your thoughts:

"Does designing a specialized fighting knife, pigeon hole or limit one's martial expression?" When the design requires a specialized skill set, I believe it does. I am a big fan of universal skill sets. The way I approach knife tactics works just as well with a paring knife or box cutter as it does with a purpose-designed tactical folder. The same can't always be said of specialized skill sets. As always, the choice is up to you.

"Does anyone think that carrying a knife that is specifically designed and made as a self defence weapon leaves the user open for prosecution should they indeed have to use it for self defense?" Yes. That's one reason why the Yojimbo bears a striking resemblance to a Stanley utility knife. It's also why I insisted on a blue handle option, even though "tactical black" outsells it by a significant margin.

"I totally agree about the dedicated being and staying dedicated, but a few years back, training was all the rage (at least lip service was), but There was very much talking (on these and other boards), you'd have thought that the market was enormous and endless, but when the rubber hit the road, it didn't turn out that way." Talking and training are always two different things. That's just the nature of the beast. I've been teaching my current curriculum for almost 9 years and the number of really interested folks willing to get off the couch and attend a class has remained pretty constant -- and pretty small -- during that time. That's OK, though. It just makes me appreciate the guys who DO train even more.

Again, thanks for a cool thread.

Stay safe,