Gurkhas win hearing on race bias claims

Daniel Koster

Daniel Koster

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From: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_644748.html

Former Gurkhas have won the right take their racial discrimination case against the Government to the High Court for a full judicial review.

Lawyers acting for about 30,000 former soldiers claimed they have been discriminated against in more than 20 different ways, including pay and pensions, religion, dress code and living conditions.

The Gurkhas were granted permission for a full hearing at a later date at which the Prime Minister's wife, Cherie Booth QC, will represent them.

If the Gurkhas' claims are upheld, the Ministry of Defence could face an estimated £2 billion bill for equalising the pay and pensions, the soldiers have missed out on.
 
Holy Toledo! If they win talk about pennies from Heaven. There'll be some hot times in the old villages.
 
maybee uncle bill could enlighten us on this a bit, he knows ghurkas personaly, but i dont know if he would know there pay details ect.

i am not so sure its a good thing or a bad thing??/
from what i have been reading on this subject, some gurkas like the idea some dont.some are opposed totaly to the idea.
from what i have read, there are fears of the nepal economy being wrecked???
at the present time gurkas are allowed full indexed pensions after 15yrs service,recieve overseas allowances to there pay,get long paid leave to return on a regular basis to nepal ect ect.apparently with allowances ect they arent to far behind other british troops.??/
not real sure what that means in actual doollars though , maybee someone out there knows.
as regards the pension british soldiers are not even allowed to access pensions apparently until age 55 +.
whereas most gurkas would be approximatly say 17 on enlistment+ 15 yrs service=32 yrs of age bacck to nepal on full index pension.
so they do get other perks. but i dont know the full story as to how it all equels out on paper.
the main argument seems to be that the nepalese standard income is very low approx 200 pounds a year would be good so i understand. so a pension at 32 yrs old 3-10 times average wage, depending on rank, looks pretty good to some gurkas.but i suppose still doesant address the equality issue.
i do know though there is very harsh feelings about this subject. both for and against.
[all i can say is the if the gurkas were paid what they were worth the english gov+indian gov would be bankrupt, cos they dont have that kinda money, ie one gurka is worth 4 normal soldiers.]:)

but like bill said what a party they will have if they do get backpay.:) :)
 
Having been a veteran of war and, most of them have been in some kind of conflict. They deserve everything they can get.
Yes, there has been a lot of discrimination against them for a long time. For the valued soldiers we all know them to be, this is disgraceful.
 
Without a doubt the Gurkha soldiers are among the best in the world-and they are BORN that way. Quite a credit to the people of Nepal.

I dont think they deserve equal pay to your average soldier-they deserve BETTER pay; simply because they are better. There are a few facts though that need to be addressed. If the issue of equal pay had been on the table when the Gurkha's were first recruited, it never would have happened. A deal was struck that was amenable to all parties. The British army got some exellent soldiers and the Gurkha's were paid well in excess of what they could expect to earn in Nepal.

I know we all believe in a fair deal, but if we are going to be honest, economics doesnt work that way. It comes down to the bottom line. How many people could afford to buy one khukri, never mind several, from one of the top bladesmiths, such as Jerry Fisk? We buy our khukri's here because we get an exellent deal that we couldnt possibly get from a western based producer. We get a great deal because the standard of living in Nepal is lower than western countries. Are we therefore taking advantage of the kami because we are not paying them the amount that their work would command if made in the west? Should we morally be obliged to pay a full western standard value? Or, should we pay an ammount, as is paid now, that is good by Nepalese standards?

Unfortunately I doubt the Gurkha's will ever see anywhere near the estimated two billion pounds backpay-if for no other reason than the money isnt there. That would make for a very big hole in the national budget. That some compensation should be paid is not, in my opinion, in question. Exactly how much I dont know. Certainly something very generous by Nepalese standards should be arranged.

If a ruling is enforced leading to a large payout, that will probably mean the end of Gurkha service in the British army because of the cost. Like it or not, the Gurkha's are recruited because they do not cost the same as UK based soldiers. If that changes then they most likely wont be recruited. That would be a tragedy for all concerned, but most especially the Nepalese people.

I hope some compromise acceptable to all parties can be found, and that the Gurkha's can continue to serve with the great distinction that has always been the case.
 
Originally posted by mjjbecker
Are we therefore taking advantage of the kami because we are not paying them the amount that their work would command if made in the west? Should we morally be obliged to pay a full western standard value? Or, should we pay an ammount, as is paid now, that is good by Nepalese standards?
Click to expand...
Understood. However, consider this: what would we expect to pay the kamis if they moved to the States to set up shop here? (but still made the same nepali knives, using nepali methods, etc.) Same? More? Less?

The situation with the Gurkhas is very similar...

We can't evaluate their value based on their origin, but rather, based on the location of their expected service.
 
I have mixed feeling about this.

Most Nepali boys who buck the 500 to one odds of becoming a Gorkha soldier are looking for a better life. Many are called and few are chosen. Our own ex staffer, Vikash, was one who tried and failed. He passed all the physical requirements including the doka race but because of only a 5th grade eduction was DEselected. Why do so many try?

Those who make it are infinitely better off than those who don't even at the low pay they sign on for. But keep in mind, that low pay is better than degreed school teachers or RNs earn in Nepal. It is big money to Nepalis. Retirement can come early and even though retirement pay is piddling by our standards it is still very good money in Nepal.

There is a part of me that says these soldiers deserve more and there is a part of me which says they are lucky guys who signed the dotted line and agreed to serve for what they got.

I have the same mixed emotions about the kamis.

I'm not sure what the wisest answer might be.
 
Originally posted by pendentive

Understood. However, consider this: what would we expect to pay the kamis if they moved to the States to set up shop here? (but still made the same nepali knives, using nepali methods, etc.) Same? More? Less?

The situation with the Gurkhas is very similar...

We can't evaluate their value based on their origin, but rather, based on the location of their expected service.
Click to expand...

You will find no arguement from me that a man, any man, who puts his life at risk deserves to be paid a very good wage for it, ( more than pretty much ANY soldier gets ). The Gurkha's bravery in battle is the stuff of legend: I believe they have won the Victoria Cross medal more times than any other regiment. Quite a testiment to bravery considering that it is virtually always awarded posthumously.

I understand what you are saying, but the Gurkha's are employed on the basis of them being Nepalese citizens who will return and live in Nepal once they have finished their service. Pay and pensions are judged on this basis. A basic soldiers wage in the UK is less than the so called national average wage. A Gurkha's wage is considerably more by Nepalese standards. A Gurkha's pension will be worth more in real terms to him than a soldier who retires to live in the UK. It is, as Uncle Bill said, a good living.

That Gurkha service continues in the British army today is in no small part due to the cost. The UK defence budget is miniscule when compared to the US. I saw a program the other day where it was stated that one of your aircraft carriers has more firepower than the entire Royal Airforce. If the expense of hiring the Gurkha's is pushed up significantly then they will cease to be members of the British army.

As I said before, I hope some agreement can be reached that works for all parties and that the Gurkha's can continue to be part of the British army. Any one of them is a better man than I.
 
Originally posted by mjjbecker
You will find no arguement from me that a man, any man, who puts his life at risk deserves to be paid a very good wage for it, ( more than pretty much ANY soldier gets ).
Click to expand...
Our very own armed forces rewards special ops more than regular forces...and rightly so. They are better trained.

In the end, only one question will remain "What is it worth to the British Armed Forces?" It will never actually be a question of "What is it worth to the Gurhkas?" Which is, I suppose, how it should be.

In everything there lies a compromise.

Life is a transaction - you are either buying or selling wherever you go, whatever you do.

BTW, where's all the regular dissenters? How come only ghorka has commented, and not the others? Could use some more disagreement here...
 
Originally posted by pendentive

BTW, where's all the regular dissenters? How come only ghorka has commented, and not the others? Could use some more disagreement here...
Click to expand...

Dan it's my opinion that ghorka is the worst possible kind of troll there is.:barf:
With Bill's policy of Free Speech here on this forum no matter how much I may agree with you what I have to say wouldn't be heard anyway.
The ones that would disrupt this group has free reign. Pity.:(

I have ghorka on my ignore list and I will not reply to him anymore.
Ghorka as same as admitted to me in his last e-mail to me that he is a troll, even offered to change his name to "ghorka-troll" and passed it off as a lighter note. This is another common tactic used by trolls as well as posting one thing and then saying another in private.:barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:

Excerpt from e-mail....
"on a lighter note if you realy press me i would be prepared to change my name to ghorka-troll he he until i prove my intentions are not troll like. thanks for listenin."
 
The issue of disrupting local economies is a tough one.

I recently perused a site that sold a huge variety of various hand-crafted bows including English longbows, Asian bows, and North American Indian bows. Most were produced using authentic natural materials and construction. Nearly all were made in Europe and North America and cost several hundred to several thousand dollars.

A couple were made by South American Indians who pretty much still live as they used to, at least they did a few years ago. Although these bows are arguably the most "authentic" they were selling for a fraction of the price of the other bows, and this was noted as a deliberate measure taken to minimize disruption of the local economy, the bows were not of a lesser quality.

How to set the price on such an item? To maximize income for the producers? To maximize the number employed? How to decide what degree of disruption of the local economy is acceptable? Seems a tough decision.

BTW such disruption occurs in our own local economies, just ask a nurse or schoolteacher employed in the San Francisco Bay area or Silicon Valley. They have a tough time getting medical specialists and surgeons to work there too.
 
I "hear" everything because I read everything that's posted on the forum.

Let me use an analogy rather than taking up a lot of space. One of the men I admire most in this country today is a little Jewish attorney named Goldberger who defended the right of free speech for a group of Nazis who were trying to organize some kind of parade or rally in Skokie, IL.

He paid a high price for doing what he felt was the right thing to do. You either believe in and defend free speech or you don't. I can't find any middle ground. Neither could Goldberger.
 
Just stating my opinion as I have a right to do Bill.

Edited to add....
I have ghorka on my ignore list so I will not be replying to his posts.
He can troll all he wants as far as I'm concerned.:rolleyes:
 
Hell as far as I'm concerned you can even welcome Rust back if he wants to come and post.
He claimed he wasn't trying to disrupt anything too.:p
 
Got to thinking and maybe this will clarify how I feel. I'm as much for Free Speech as anyone, hell let's face it I come from a race that wasn't allowed to marry white folks in some states until the '60's.
My problem is people who don't live in this country and run it down making it look like we're the bad asses of the world.

I would no doubt of joined your Jewish friend in his defense of the Nazis since they were all living here and know or should know why they're defending what they believe.
As long as anyone has lived in this country and knows from wherefore they speak instead of getting it off some damned television documentery then I will defend them to the death. Until then I don't believe they know what the hell they're talking about.
Let them come and live here and then they have every right to bad mouth the sorry state of our country and Her Government.
I think everyone here knows how I feel about the US Gubbiment, but if I were able I would be right over there with Sarge just like most of the guys here would.
The United States of America is still the Best Damned Country in the World!!!!
And some damned jocky from (Ceylon**)from anywhere else isn't gonna tell me different!!!!

**Edited to say.... from anywhere else
 
please yvsa give it up i didant start this thread penditive did,an i answered his thread with relevent info on the subject,and in return we have a good amount of other info, which is very interesting non of it troll like at all.so like you say until i show that i have learnt about how to post and reply, lets call a truce. thanks ghorka. :)
and yes i did send you an email you forgot to mention that i again ate humble crow,and apologised to you,mentioning that i had taken the time to research further into the subject of native americans indians ,and discovered that in fact you were correct ,and i was wrong in what i had said.as to the bit about ghorka troll i did say that jokingly with a hee hee after it trying to lighten the mood,and show that even after eating humble crow, i still had a sense of humour.
anyway lets wait an see how i go , actions speak louder than words. thanks again yvsaa. regards ghorka:(

and as you make mention of things that are said on the forum and different sent in private here to show i have nothing to hide is the complete email, and in respect for you i will not email you again untill you invite me to .regards ghorka

hi yvsa its ghorka again my first name is ken
i have again made an apology to you on the forum as you can see. i just wanted you to know i cared enuff to do some research on the cherokee and came up with quite a lot of sad but interesting facts about the indian nationss forced removals.
strange how things are brought before you by those above,
last night on aiussie tv a program came on an i watched it with great intrest, it was called the 500 nations.
and wouldant you know it it was specificly about the cherokee and shawnee.
it backed up what i had allready found out about forcred removal of indian nations by whites, causing as you pointed out great tribal conflicts as the displaced were forced to flee into other nations hunting grounds.
it also detailed the cherokee betrayal by a tribal chief-elder major ridge who sold of tribal cherokee lands to the us gov for $5,000,000 dollars, conterary to the tribal council ruling, he and his sons and 2000 cherokees then emigrated to oklahoma, but apparently got his just deserts as he was later executed for doing so by the cherokee.
this program interviewed quite a few chorokee elders, and i thought gave a very good if brief account of some of the injustices done to native american tribes.
so to summarise i just wanted you to know on the serious side that i do not take other peoples hurt lightly, even if it may seem so in my way of writeing, hence when i am wrong i apologise. regards ghorka ken

on a lighter note if you realy press me i would be prepared to change my name to ghorka-troll he he until i prove my intentions are not troll like. thanks for listenin.
 
ghorka - Yvsa has you on his ignore list. That means he's not going to see your post. Apparently you have really offended someone who is by nature an accepting person.

Take my advice - lay off and lie low. We all forgive and forget, with time. In the meantime, you are welcome to rant in Whine & Cheese, or the Political Arena.

Having read the email you sent to Yvsa, I think even I would have been a little miffed and it takes a lot to upset me. Please let the wound heal...
 
yes i aggree pendentive nothing i do seems to make any difference so i give up, will just have to wait. :( :)an no i will post here on hi thanks, i like it here,
but anything politcal like to do with america i will post on the political forum yes indeedy.
but will not hesitate to reply to any other post on hi, if i feel i have something to contribute. regards ghorka:)

UPDATE THIS:) :)

we have reached an understanding, thank goodness, please see my apology thread, thanks all. now lets get back to posting good intresting stuff.:) :)
 
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