H-15 Question

[ky40601]

Recently, I acquired an H-15 with Red Spacers and the H-15 is stamped on the opposite side of the Schrade-Walden Tang Stamp. Can anyone tell me the story behind these two different H-15's.

H-15-L (Brown Spacers)

H-15-L (Red Spacers)

Jackie

 

[Codger_64]

Jackie, to the best of my knowledge, no one has yet done an indepth study of this pattern. Most research to date has focused on the pattern variants, and not variations within the patterns. Are either or both of the butts peened or retained by a rivet? In some instances, Sears sold the H-15 pattern with red spacers. I wouldn't presume to say that it was a Sears exclusive though. A lot of these earlier Sears Schrade Walden SFOs used the production tang stamps and special blade etches with Sears pattern names and trade names. Not that many of those etches survive on used knives. Belknap catalogs were black and white, so I couldn't say what color spacers were used on their knives. The H-15 itself seems to have evolved from an earlier pattern made by Imperial, and some old notes even refer to parts being sourced from Providence for H-15s. I'll see if I can find an older post by Frank Trzaska on these.

Michael

 

[Codger_64]

Good stuff, love that ad posted. Just a few nitpick items to add to the discussion.

The above knife is a commercial copy of a real military pattern.

First adopted on 16 October 1953 as the MIL-K-8662 (AER) Pilot Survival Knife this Schrade design was the issue flight knife until 1957 when the military adopted the now familiar Jet Pilots Knife as designed by Marbles but generally supplied in bulk back then by Camillus. The original guard was straight but later altered to the M3 configuration and the sheath was clipped on the corner to allow it to fit tight. The oak leaf sheath was also a military item believe it or not but the issue one had rivets around the perimeter in case the stitching broke. I have some photos of guys wearing them with the embossed finish. It is NOT in the specifications but they did make it into the inventory. In the 1954 test when it was pitted against the Randall Model 14 it again won the test. Only due to the cost but it did indeed beat up a Randall as a military issue knife. In that test they again show the oak leaf sheath in testing!

The leather washer handles on the original M3 are distinctly different in appearance due to the way the handles were assembled. In the beginning... the handles were made by stacking large and smaller washers to form the grooves. Some time in 1943 to 1945 most if not all of the cutlery companies converted over to a machine made handle. All washers were of the same size and then a machine called a Hafting machine (almost like a lathe) cut the grooves into the handles. Look closely at the above handle and you can see the grooves are Vee shaped not squared off like the early M3 handles. Imperial seems to have changed over in 1944 when they were making the M4 bayonet as all M3's I have seen are square grooved from this company. Numbers of grooves were specified in the specs but loosely followed, I have seen 6, 7 and the typical 8 groove handles on M3's. The grooves were dropped to 6 on the M4 bayonet so this handle generally follows the later pattern handle. Also 6 grooves were called for in the Pilot survival specification and as this piece is a direct copy of it I would GUESS the same tooling was used. I hate using that word but it seems to fit here.

Schrade won a bid in 1956 on 23,787 of this pattern knives for the Navy. The cost with sheath was ... $1.196 each, oh for those days again.

All the best
Frank Trzaska

This fills out some of the history of the pattern, but still does not address the red spacers.

 

[ky40601]

Michael,

Thanks for the fantastic information. I'm new at collecting Schrade-Walden knives. I'm amazed and enthused at the different variations in the knives. It makes collecting them very enjoyable.

Again, thank you,

Jackie

 

[Codger_64]

Jackie, while some folks might wonder why a collector would gather a whole pile of seemingly identical (similar) knives, I've found that close comparison of a large sampling is the only way to ferret out the production changes and tiny insignificant details that tell a pattern's history. I've done this myself with several patterns of Schrade sheath knives so far.

I have a book of production notes by A.B. Hourin from Schrade Walden circa late 1940's-early 1950's which mentions that some sheath knife patterns made for Sears called for deleting the pattern number. That could be a good reason for the pattern number to appear on the tang opposite the main marks. For a Sears knife, just leave off that extra stamp. The main mark stamp would by used on both regular production and Sears (or other SFOs).

I have a couple of SW patterns where the pattern number is not stamped at all, but rather an etch. Remainders after filling a Sears order? Dunno. Very few SW sheath knives were marked with the J.C. Higgins mark. And the Ted Williams mark used after circa 1961 was nearly always an added blade etch. The Craftsman mark didn't appear as a stamp until much later, though it was occasionally an etch.

Look at the H-15 (and it's siblings) on the collectors-of-schrades-r.us site, particularly Larry H's collection.
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/corners/LarryH/pages/Boxes- (2).htm
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r...and Imperial Bowie Hunter Variations. 006.htm
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r...and Imperial Bowie Hunter Variations. 005.htm
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/corners/LarryH/pages/Older Fixed Blades.htm
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/corners/LarryH/pages/Older Fixed Blades (18).htm
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/corners/LarryH/index_11.htm
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r...lity Hunter and Imperial Equivalents. 007.htm
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/Craftsman/pages/Bowie Hunter.htm
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/Craftsman/pages/Craftsman 138L Bowie Hunter.htm
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/Craftsman/pages/Craftsman The Camper.htm
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/Craftsman/pages/schrdshth6.htm
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/Craftsman/pages/schrdshth3.htm


Michael

 

[ky40601]

Michael,

You have a mighty fine collection. They're fantastic.

Thank you for sharing them.

While I got you, what is the significant in the bands below the pommel? I see some of the same patterned knife with Black, White, Red bands and some with Black, White, Red, White, Black bands.

Again, thank you,

Jackie

 

[Codger_64]

Not my collection, Larry303's. And I agree it is fine!

I have no idea of the spacer color significance. Some large customer may have ordered a special color combination. Or they could just be from different production periods. Made basically from the 1950's thru the early 1970's, that is quite a bit of production, and people's tastes change.

These H-15 and associated variant pattern knives are still relatively cheap, so buy the ones that interest you, save photo files of the others you see and compare them. Do your own pattern survey and share with us what you learn!

Michael

 

[ky40601]

Michael,

What I've noticed don't know if it's important. Waiting for a couple Schrade-Walden's to be delivered before saying.

The most notable differences I've noticed is the number of Black, White, and Red spacers on the same patterned knife. Plus, some have brass spacers as well.

Another thing is where the serration starts on the same patterned "Wonda-Edge" knives. Some starts closer to the tang than on another knife.

Don't know if they're any big significance in these variations but it sure makes it more enjoyable collecting them.

Jackie

 

[Codger_64]

"Wonda-Edge" knives are one of my favorite Schrade enigmas. Some patterns they were advertised as being available on, I have never seen. And the Wonda Edge appears on several patterns never advertised, that I have seen. The first one to come to my attention was a Schrade Walden 137WE. I didn't realize it had that serrated edge when I bought it. WHile the feature seems to have been a marketing flop, it is very common on steak knives to this very day.

Another oddity is the "TC" edge. Robeson is creditied with first use, but quite a few Schrades have been seen with the "Ever-last" tungsten carbide edged blades. Both of these features required that the knives be honed from the opposite, unfeatured side. I guess the public never caught on.

Michael

 

[ky40601]

Michael.

This is the only "Wonda-Edge" I have right now. They're two on order, though.

The blade needs a little cleaning but you still can read on one side, "Hunter's Pride" and the opposite side, " Wonda-Edge, Patient Pending".

144-LWE Hunter's Pride

Jackie

 

[Larry303]

....bumped up for PaulAustralia's question re the H-15...fair bit of info here Paul...how goes the Riverland mate?....receiving plenty of water? Hoo Roo

 

[Jamo]

Hey UL can you do stickys to mate ?

 

[Larry303]

....all my posts should be sticky dates mate according to some........

 

[Jamo]

I know I used to turn my nose up at sticky date puddings when I was a kid .

Thought some arsehole made it