Hair wittling impossible with Sharpmaker white stones?

B

bubblewhip

Joined
Dec 18, 2009
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Been trying really hard to make a hair whittling edge with what I got, the highest grit I can offer is sharpmaker white stones. Even at 30 degrees. Tried it with a SAK and failed, then I thought it was the steel so I used my Charge TTI with S30V hoping that CPM would give me a finer edge. It still failed. No burrs I can find shinning it to the light. Is it impossible or am I doing something wrong? It's razor sharp though, will take off hair.
 
Maybe but it will not be that easy, you will probably also need a much thinner back bevel than what the SM provides. Even a straight 15 could prove difficult depending on blade thickness.

Get the UF rods, they are cheap and will bring you the sharpness you are looking for.
 
not to sound like an a'hole, but you're doing something wrong. i can get a hair splitting edge with my Sharpmaker with just the gray and white stones.

if your Sharpmaker is new, it's harder to use because the stones have to be "broken" in. try rubbing them together on all sides to get through that stubborn top layer.

the 15 degree angle will be primarily used for backing up the bevel shoulder as you wear the edge toward the spine. i sharpen A LOT of knives and the majority work well on the 40 degree side (20 degrees per side).

you may have to play with it a bit until the stones get fully broken in. you can also scrub them with very coarse steel wool (like what you use to wash cast iron skillets out with) and comet (or something like comet). by play with it i mean you may have to push harder on the blade, or sometimes i find when i buy new stones that i have to go through all the steps when sharpening a knife (ie. gray stones -angle/flat, white stones - angle/flat) to get a hair poppin' (or better) edge.

i would try breaking them in first. i've used a lot of various sharpening systems and the only ones i recommend are Sharpmakers, Wicked Edge, .......and a belt grinder (if you know what you're doing!) ;)

BTW, i've never in the years i've been using a Sharpmaker, had to buy the ultra-fine stones to get a hair whittling edge. i've bought the diamond rods, but that's about it.

hope that helps.

if you have any more problems shoot me an email and i'll give you my number and you can call me and i'll discuss it with you.
 
Rubbing the ceramics together is not that great of a idea, I would not suggest it.
 
I have been using the sharpmaker for about a year now and have used the vintage Case, Lansky, Smith's, etc. sharpeners that look and function just like the sharpmaker for 20+ years now..........I can get a hair shaving edge with the grey stones ( but its a rough edge ). The white stones are great for final sharpening and will put a much finer edge. I even use the Ultra Fine sticks and they will pretty much put a polished edge on the blade. You can shave Hair with all 3 stones. I just feel that the white and ultra fine will put a more polished and finished edge to your knives. The brown stones are to remove burs and imperfections and get the edge ready for the white ones............If the stone are grey and dirty, they will not work as well or at all. I clean mine with Comet and water in the sink. Just be careful not to drop them in the sink because they are rather fragile and will break.........I mainly use the 40 degree setting for nearly all my knives, only using the 30 degree setting for paring and fillet knives and similar. Using these sharpeners takes time, especially with quality steels. I reprofiled my strider smf on the sharpmaker using the sharpie trick and the brown stones. When I got to the 20 degree angle I wanted, I then went to the white fine stones and then finished it off and polished the edge with the Ultra Fine Stones. Overall, it took me 2 hours of non stop sharpening, but the results were certainly worth it.

The sharpie trick works great because on most knives, one edge may be 20 degrees, while the other may be say 22 degrees. So as your sharpening, your only getting one side and not the other.........Keeping your hands and the knife straight is paramount also.......There are lots of variables !

But you can achieve Very Scary Sharp Edges on the sharpmaker rather easily with time and the proper technique.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Rubbing the ceramics together is not that great of a idea, I would not suggest it.
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really, Sal recommends it! :D

it's exactly what he recommends to do as soon as you get new gray and white ceramic rods. i got that straight from him and i've probably done it on 15+ rods.

knives are how i make a living. people send me their knives to sharpen pretty much daily (among other things), i'm pretty proficient at it. while the Sharpmaker isn't the only tool i use to do this, it's one of the more important ones.
 
Maybe the same rods but not different grits. I used spyderco ceramic products for over 10 years and still do, never heard of rubbing the stones together. The way the brown stone is made it most effective sharpening should be on its first use. They wear out with time and must be replaced or can be lapped with aa XC diamond stone to "refresh" the surface.

Would love to hear the exact reasons from Sal but from my experience with the lapping of ceramics it seems obvious that rubbing the stones together would change the finish, reduce effectiveness of the stone, and shorten its useable life. Considering the average life of a brown stone is 5-7 years I'm not trying to speed that process.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Maybe the same rods but not different grits. I used spyderco ceramic products for over 10 years and still do, never heard of rubbing the stones together. The way the brown stone is made it most effective sharpening should be on its first use. They wear out with time and must be replaced or can be lapped with aa XC diamond stone to "refresh" the surface.

Would love to hear the exact reasons from Sal but from my experience with the lapping of ceramics it seems obvious that rubbing the stones together would change the finish, reduce effectiveness of the stone, and shorten its useable life. Considering the average life of a brown stone is 5-7 years I'm not trying to speed that process.
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yes, like grits together.

i had a pretty good convo. with Sal about it a couple of years ago. i believe he also talks about it in the instructional DVD that comes with the Sharpmakers.

Not trying to argue, just is what it is.

My rods don't last 5-7 years, but mine get used heavily. i sharpen 15-30 knives a week depending on the orders in that given week, seems 15 is the magic number on average. like i said above i've gone through 15 or so rods in the last couple years and that's pretty much flattening the angled sides (the white rods last twice as long as the gray). i only clean them in the sink with a greenie weenie and comet. they only get rubbed together for about ten minutes when first bought in the "brand new" state. and yes, they sharpen better after that happens. this isn't something you continue to do for a long period of time, only when brand new to "break them in."
 
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No, I understand I just can't see the logic behind it.... would like to know though....
 
you have to open them up a little bit when you first get them.

if you notice on brand new rods there's a glossy "sheen" on them. in this state they don't like to remove material, what they like to do is put ugly black marks on your edge. they slide more than remove material. from what Sal mentioned they will "break in" faster if you rub (like grits) together to open them up a bit and they'll remove the material they need to. rubbing the rods themselves together will accomplish faster than just sharpening with the rods right outta the box. it would take around ten full knife sharpening sessions to achieve what you can with 10min of rubbing the stones together.

you don't need to do this as much with the white stones as they are meant to produce a fine edge, and they are made out of, pretty much, man made sapphire. so, rubbing them together only takes off the "sheen," anything after that is pretty much futile :)

again, don't take anything i'm saying as argumentative, just trying to give the best advise from my experience possible. i wouldn't lead anyone down the wrong path.....even though my spelling might!!! :) LOL!!!
 
The Sun said:
you have to open them up a little bit when you first get them.

if you notice on brand new rods there's a glossy "sheen" on them. in this state they don't like to remove material, what they like to do is put ugly black marks on your edge. they slide more than remove material. from what Sal mentioned they will "break in" faster if you rub (like grits) together to open them up a bit and they'll remove the material they need to. rubbing the rods themselves together will accomplish faster than just sharpening with the rods right outta the box. it would take around ten full knife sharpening sessions to achieve what you can with 10min of rubbing the stones together.

you don't need to do this as much with the white stones as they are meant to produce a fine edge, and they are made out of, pretty much, man made sapphire. so, rubbing them together only takes off the "sheen," anything after that is pretty much futile :)

again, don't take anything i'm saying as argumentative, just trying to give the best advise from my experience possible. i wouldn't lead anyone down the wrong path.....even though my spelling might!!! :) LOL!!!
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They are worn down, sharpened about 30-40 knives on the system. Razor sharp for most people, but not hair witting. I think I'm just going to buy a DMT XXF and hopefully It will get me to that point.
 
if you want sharper than that check out the Wicked Edge system. they have stones that go down past 6000 grit i believe. they also have a strop attachment for it. it doesn't get much better than that. and it's so easy a caveman could do it :)

the Sharpmaker is all about technique. i can split a hair when i'm done sharpening on mine. i stone-wash and bead-blast a lot of knives, when i'm done the edges are round. i reprofile on the grinder, then clean them up on the Sharpmaker and like i said splittin' sharp. it's just like any other sharpening system, or even free hand, you have to find what works for you and get down the technique.

i would definitely look at the Wicked Edge though. Plus, they are damn fine people!!!
 
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Ever tried stropping on some leather after the ultrafine rods?
Could do the trick. Some compound could be nice but i think its not necessary.

I think CPM-S30V supports a really nice and sharp edge - altough i do not know my angle ;) - maybe something between 12-16 degrees per side?
(i dont have a sharpmaker, i sharpen free hand on benchstones and use the one ceramic sharpmaker rod like a benchstone)

In addition to that: Hair is different... Maybe your hair is very thin (the single hairs) and you're doing just fine :)

s_f
 
You can do it. I have, every time.

What you want to do is to use the 30 degree setting for the back bevel, then the 40 degree for the cutting edge. Use the brown corners until when you move the blade down, there's almost no resistance, then switch to the brown flats, then white corners, then white flats. At the end, your edge should be very polished, and should be able to split hairs with ease.
 
You can whittle hair off the brown stones if you practice enough. Without knowing your technique, I suggest starting fresh. Cut lightly into (yes, into) the brown stones to remove any burr and weakened metal. Just take a couple of light cutting strokes. If you have a coarse stone of some sort, use that instead. Make sure the strokes are VERY LIGHT. The flat on the edge should be barely visible in strong light.

Now go back to the 204 and follow the steps, with a couple addes ones. Before moving from the brown flats to white corners, follow Jeff Clarks deburring method. That is, do a couple of very light strokes at double the sharpening angle to remove any burr that formed. If you're using the 20 degree slots, the angle will be 40 degrees per side. Then do a few more (10 per side or so) strokes on the flats at the normal angle before moving to the white corners. Repeat this deburring after the white flats. Also, I like to use very light pressure on the white flats. A way to do this is sharpen on the white flats without holding the base. If you push hard enough to slide the base on the table, that's too hard.

Ceramics are very prone to burr formation. The cutting action is not as good as diamond or other stones. They work best when starting with fresh material at the edge that has not been burred before. The corners have a lot of force on a small area, so they are even worse than the flats to form burrs. Making sure no burrs follow you from grit to grit is the easiest way I've found to get a hair splitting edge with the stock 204 stones.
 
The only sharpmaker rods you should rub together if you feel the need to are the brown rods.
 
I had a SM and I'd swear that it had a defect since one side had a tight hole (triangle slot) and the other was sloppy. I sold it and the new owner is happy with it since it did work, but what a pita. Either every knife I owned had more stock on one side than the other or the rod's didn't "Both" sit at the same angle. I always had one wide bevel and the other side would be thin.

I used it many times from the diamods to the U/F rods with varying pressures, stropping - you name it - but that thing would never give me an edge that would shave any hair off my arm.

I went to the full range of DMT Dia-folds with a Magna-Guide and going free hand or using the guide, I get shaving sharp edges in minutes now instead of hours.

Good luck with your SharpMaker. I'm done with them. :(

Don't mean to be a troll - maybe you have an incorrectly angled side, like was mentioned earlier. :)
 
IMHO, the 204 is recommended without really understanding what it's purpose is, and that it really doesn't stand alone as a sharpening tool. It is meant for edge maintenance and final finishing of knives that have a good bevel already on them. It is not good for rebeveling, though I've done it from 420HC up to Boye's cast 440C. It's really good for final finishing after using a coarse and medium stone. It excels at maintaining a sharp edge on knives that have a microbevel. My dad's old Parker stag handled trapper has the clip blade beveled at 12 degrees per side, and the spey blade beveled at 17 degrees per side (dps). Then I use the 204 for applying the final polish and microbevel at 15 dps and 20 dps. I can use the 204 for months without having to go back to the coarse stone or belt sander. IMHO this is the intended purpose of the 204. The medium rods are coarse enough to actually sharpen and the white rods will put a frightening edge on a knife.
 
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