Hamon fail

N

nbojczuk

Joined
Jun 13, 2014
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10
Hello. Sorry for the bad pics, have an old phone... but basically, cannot get a hamon to show on 4 different attempts now. I am using 1084 from aldo/njsb. I understand that 1095, 1075, w2 etc. would be better for hamons, but the low manganese in njsb's secret sause should get something to show at least. Blades were sanded to 400g and then hit with scotch bright belt, cleaned with windex and 91% alcohol, and 2800deg furnace cement applied as clay. 24 hrs cure time for clay. Heated in oven to 1500deg and soak for ~10 min (using thick stock) then immediately into 5gal of canola oil. (tried both room temp, and heated to 120f) Tempered at 400deg for 1 hr twice. Cleaned up blades and ground back up to 400 grit. Was worried at this point as no hint of a hamon line was showing yet. Scotch bright belt and cleaned again, and into etch for 5min. (4-1 FC/apple cider vinegar) Neutralized in backing soda water, cleaned up and hand sand... zero signs of any hamon... repeat etch again, and nothing.

I understand most people will sand up to 1500-2000 for this, but im learning at this point and even at around 5-600 grit and etch, there "should" be at least some signs of activity for the hamon, but there isnt. Oh, the differential hardening did appear to work... the edge is hard and skates a file on all 4 knives, and i can get the spine to bite on the file.. so it does not appear to be through hardened. Most of the failures ive read about are because the clay fell off in the quench and/or the blade through hardened, or didnt harden at all... which does not appear to be the case here. Ive tried to include all the relevant info here, but im sure im forgetting to add something... any help would be appreciated.. as im stumped here. Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

Apparently you cannot upload pics here.. didnt know that.. so hopefully this link works. Last pic with the 3 knives are the how things sit now, after 2 etches.
https://flic.kr/ps/3W4bPh

thanks again.
 
I think the problem is the 1084, I can see a hint of differential hardening but I don’t think you will get a clear line, it’s almost like it’s gradually hardened from the edge to the spine instead of the abrupt change in structure that you can get with steels like 1095 w2 26c3
 
Thanks for the reply. Ive included pics where I scrapped off most of the clay right after the ht so you have an idea where the hamon lines "should" be... thanks again.
 
1500°F was too high in the first place. 1475°F is the normal austenitization for 1084.
To get a hamon, you usually lower the austenitization temperature. Try 1450°F.

The clay has to be thin. Stove cement does not work well in my experience. Satanite works good, and the Nuclayer System of a wash and then thin hamon clay works very good.

Canola oil is a bit on the slow side for a hamon. Use Parks 50 or brine. While brine will give a more active hamon, it has more crack failures.

Developing the hamon after quench is an art called shiage-togi. Use the right sanding and polishing materials to get the most activity. The etchant most popular is dilute FC. Most people do what is called a "hybrid-polish".
 
Dave Lisch just recommended NJSB 1075 for producing a "great hamon" in his forging demo last week
 
Thank you for the info. I cannot afford satanite yet, but it is on my list. I will try again at 1450, and maybe a thinner application of cement. Thank you.

Quick question about the "wash" with satanite... do you leave this thin layer on the entire blade, then apply a thicker layer after its dried to form the pattern? I have read about this process before, but the pictures seemed to show this thin layer/wash was scrapped off once dried near the edge... i assume so the quenchent can have direct contant with the steel.
 
Yes.
The wassh coat is a very thin slurry of satanite or other hamon clay, that is applied to the whole blade. I describe the consistency as a melted milk shake.
Dry it with a hair dryer.
Next, apply the hamon coat. The hamon coat is a slightly thicker ix, about the consistency of room temperature sour cream or yogurt.
The hamon coat is not thick at all. About 1/16"/1.5mm is right.

Nuclayer has a great video showing the process.
Nuclayer Systems Part One - Bing video
Nuclayer Systems Part Two - Bing video

I think stove cement will work if it is thinned down.

One advantage in filling out your profile is someone near you, or in the same country, might offer you some good steel or satanite. If you are in the USA, I would send you a flat rate box of satanite that would do dozens of blades.
 
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https://flic.kr/ps/3W4bPh

thank you again for the info. I will watch those 2 videos shortly. Ive been working hard to get another blade roughed out and attempt this again... apparently im terrible at this lol. Ive attached 8 more photos with text explaining at what step each one was at. oven was set to 1455, soak for 8 min and oil quench. I did manage to dilute the motar cement with some water. was much more manageable and went on thinner... maybe 1/8" or smaller. I am sacrificing all this steel as a learning curve to try and dial in the ht and to get some kind oh hamon activity (no matter how small) Note: the tip skatted the file, but did bite as you move down the blade... i wonder if that lower temp effected it, or maybe my temp readout is not accurate?

I have 2 questions if you dont mind... dont know how well i can explain this, but the scale after ht i cannot remove by hand. sand paper just smears it everywhere and loads up on the paper and stops cutting immediately... brass wire brush by hand also fails to remove scale... a wire wheel attached to a cordless drill does work, but basically destroys the knife and scratches the hell out of it... i square all my steel on the belt grinder before starting, but am scared to do that after ht, as the bevels/flats are on the "same plane" as the handle, and touching that flat on the belt, may distroy the bevels/flats.. how do you guys/gals remove scale after ht? i know about the vinegar soak, but these are very small knives, so figured there was a better/faster way. (also, the entire blade rusted during the temper... no idea how that happened at all)

I have done a ton of research on hamons.. but this just goes to show book knowledge doesnt just magically translate to practical knowledge. I am just making a simple grind/profile on all of these to test the ht and hamons.. and am kind of baffled that i cannon get even a simple straight line to show here... any tips or suggestions to tweak this process to get any hamon activity would be greatly appreciated. first attemps were at 500deg into oil quench. hardened, but no hamon. these attemps were at 1455deg into oil (with better "clay" application) entire blade i dont think hardened. tip did. and no hamon activity.. im not sure where to tweak the procedure from here...

and stacy, thank you for your generous offer
 
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Great videos. Thank you Stacy! and here i thought satenite was expensive... I wonder if using satenite to draw a hamon pattern, then coating the rest of the blade in nuclay or similar anti scale would work? Do you happen to know of a cheaper/more readily available anti scale clay? Or would that just be a thinner/watered down application of satenite?

However, i dont think the best/most expensive clay in the world would matter right now until i can learn to draw out a basic hamon first... but doesnt hurt to plan ahead.
 
Take this with a grain of salt as I've only done less than a dozen hamons but I think what you have in the one photo after the first etch is a hamon. There won't be much activity visible at 400 grit anyways so between the belt finish and 1084 that's probably the best you'll get. Keep etching and lightly polishing off the oxides a few times and the line should remain. I know you probably are trying to avoid buying a different steel type but at this rate you're using up 1084 trying to get a hamon and you could just get a small bar of W2 or 26C3 instead and it would be much less frustrating and have a better hamon to show for the effort. Edited to add that I remove scale on the grinder which is probably what many others do as well. Bevels will get ground anyway to remove scale and the flats get ground vertically against the platen to remove scale. You are correct that will run into the handle area a bit which is ok. I flatten handles after on a disc but you could also touch it up on a surface plate, shouldn't majorly reduce flatness by cleaning up flats.
 
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Thank you imill for the info. I have seen really good hamons on aldo's 1084, and since its recommended as a good beginners steel (forgiving) figured it would suit me well since im new to all of this. My next steel purchase will be w2, but i do not know how long that will be. (spent all my money on 6x 48" bars) :( I will keep etching this last one and see if things improve any. I do have a 10" disk sander, but it is either out of balance, or the disk itself is not flat... as is will not flatten a simple piece of wood and vibrates like crazy.( it is bolted down) that sander slipped my mind, as that would be a great way to get the scale off the handles while not destroying your flats. Thank you sir for the insight and suggestions.
 
Question 1:
After the quench, soak the blade in pickle to remove the scale. Pickle is made from Sodium Bi-sulfate AKA Ph-Down. You will find it with the pool chemicals. Soak it anywhere from a few hours to overnight. It won't harm the blade but will dissolve the scale. Wash the blade and scrub it with a Scotch-Brite pad and you are ready for the shiage-togi.
Question 2:
After the blade is clean, take it back to the grinder and clean up with 220 grit followed by 400 grit. You always have to remove a few thousandth of an inch of the surface to get to the HTed steel. If you just sand it clean, you won't see the hamon beneath the "rind" ( scale and decarb).
Do not go higher than 400 on the belt grinder or you can "smear out" the hamon details.
Alternately, you can go to your water stones and start with a 200 grit stone.
From there ( the end of shitaji-togi), use whatever method you have ( hand sanding or stones) to go up the grits to at least 800 grit and as high as 2000 ( if you have the stones or paper, go to 8000 grit).
Etch in Fc, dilute nitric, lemon juice, etc. ( I find vinegar does not develop a hamon well). I prefer 100:1 nitric acid. 15:1 Fc works well, too.

Thanks for filling out your profile. Send me an email with your shipping address and I'll send you a profiled tanto in 26C3 (or a plain bar if you don't want the profiled blank) and some satanite. I'll toss in some nice handle scales, too.
 
If you don’t mind the drive I am in northern Kentucky just outside of Cincinnati, I have a bar of w2 and the nuclayer clays and would be happy to have you over to the shop and we can make a couple knives and walk through getting a hamon in person. If you would be interested in that my email is Edgeknifeworks@gmail.com send me a message there and I can give you my contact information and address and we can plan a day.
 
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