Hamon on D2 ???

galadduin

galadduin

Joined
Dec 25, 2004
Messages
1,363
I was working on a kitchen knife, looking like an eastern chef's knife. I used my last 3 mm D2 (Böhler K110) stock. First i roughly shaped by forging, then roughly grind (80 grit). It is 2 inch width 6 inch long blade (11 inch overall). Firstly normalized the blade, leaving in the ashes. It was cold after 3 hours. Then i heated only the first inch of the edge to non-magnetic and let it soak for 3-4 minutes. Quenched in preheated lineseed oil. Tempered as soon as cooled. Tempered 3 times, first 275 C then 325 C and lastly 300 C, acquired medium blue temper color. While hand rubbing 400 grit i noticed a significant 1 inch width temper line. It was never happened before and i am very happy for it was meant to be similar to an eastern chef's knife. But i knew D2 is not able to have a hamon because of the high chromium content. Was i wrong or this is a unique situation?

The performance of the blade is very satisfactory. No wraping or soft spot happened.

Ps. I will post this blade after i mount the corian handle scales and brass bolsters.
 
D2 requires a 30-45 minute soak at 1820°F to 1900°F (per Bohler/Uddeholm specs). The chances are slim that you got any kind of significant heat treatment.
 
is that possible to normalize and heat treat properly? It seems that i was completely wrong...

But there is a hamon i swear... I may done all wrong if i had a digital-camera i would show it..
 
How is the etching work for D2? I will etch it 1/4 nitric acid solution for half an hour or one hour, is it ok...
 
sure you can put a hamon on it or any other High carbon stainless steel.

but I'm thinking it wasn't annealed , that's an air cooled steel and needs more time than that I think to draw itself
I think on your 2nd heat to edge quench/harden you just tempered it more.? :confused: if you can Rockwell it see if the spine is harder than the edge. back ass wards did I say that twice today?

linseed oil :eek: .
watch that stuff in rags setting around, it's been known to combust spontaneously.
 
I didn't say you couldn't get a hamon on D2. What I said was that unless you heat treat it to spec, you will not get what you want from D2.

I use D2 most of the time-it is my favorite steel. I almost always oil quench for the speed and lack of carburization during quench. However, since it is an air hardening steel, edge quenching will probably not get you much in the way of differential hardness. Even if you were to get some differentiation, D2 peaks in impact strenghth at HRC 60 and so there is no reason to do it. It may give you some cosmetic effect, but you will lose performance ability which is the only real reason to use D2.
 
Steve
I'm agreeing that it wasn't treated right.
but commenting on what I think happen.
nothing was directed at you weather or not a hamon can be worked into it.

Differential heat treating only has two benefits
1 to keep the back bone from braking which we know that's not the case with ss and D2 and
2 the visual affect of the line.
the only thing I'd disagree on or say don't
matter KNIFE wise is with D2 or the SS's
as long as you get the edge where you want it the spine won't matter..
even if it's dead soft it don't matter
KNIFE wise.. :)
OK
I'm off guys for 2 days I think

it's to the VA Hospital with me in the morning
I'm not dieing so don't worry :) I don't think so anyway we'll see what they say ;)
 
Thanks guys. You have been so helpful.

The treatment may be ( OK! absolutely :( ) did go wrong. But i did brass rod test to the edge and file test to the spine. No the spine is soft as it can be, and look edge doesnt chip or bend: doesn't it mean the hardness is ok. So where is the mistake on the blade. Blade seems to me just fine, fine... :confused:

P.s: I am aware of my mistake. All i am asking is what would be the actual problem of this occasion where the RC (i searched forums and web that it just fit to 59-61 RCH) and sharpness (it can slice a tomatoe very thin without squashing it) is OK. Will the edge holding capacity fall off?
 
I am getting out of the area of my experience here, but it is possible that you are seeing partial results that will put your D2 blade in the class of some simple Carbon steels.

As a complex high alloy tool steel, it is considerably more expensive and requires a more demanding heat treatment to maximise its response. In order to get the full benefit of the 1.5% C and high transition metal carbide content, you need the full soak time at the right temperature range. There is no sense spending the extra money without getting the benefits. Simple high Carbon steel can be bought for a fraction of the price.
 
Can't say about the hamon since I have not yet quenched D2 in liquid. Soak about 17 minutes (1850 F) for up to about 1/4 inch. That 30 minute stuff is going to give big size grain, I believe.

RL
 
Uddeholm (BUCorp) spec for D2 at 1850° is a 40 minute soak, 1880° at 30 minutes. BUCorp starts at 1810° for 60 minutes and goes to 1920° for 30 minutes.

Crucible shows 1825° to 1875° and 30-45 minutes.

Timken Latrobe shows 1800° to 1900° all at 30 minutes soak.
 
Thanks a lot. I am not a metalurgist and after all i have been using ol' grandpa techniques. But I work hard , i mean really HARD. Also spending my all extra money for a year. Ordered bunch of books from Amazon ( ie Hrisoulas' complete bladesmith, Baelar's Art of blacksmithing), i will recieve them in a week.

You have to understand here in Turkey its very difficult to reach valuable technical info and right guys. After i spent my moths trying and trying to make blades, swords e.t.c. i figured i had to go to the right place. And im HERE!! The right place. Also its FREE, Free for my empty pocket. May be the info you're giving away is nothing for you, but you people really enlighten my way.

Just you have to realize, as a newbee i know more than (technically i meant) our local blacksmith. I chat with him time to time and after i met you, these conversations were dramatically lose their value. He always mentions (as you sometimes make fun of) supernatural behaviour of blacksmithing, how to harden (in our language hardening is called "to give water to iron"), soften iron : becareful not steel... But all now makes nonsense. Because i quit my job as an archaeologist and a computer programmer these information you just give away is bread and water for me. And i am not exaggerating it.

Yes i will try to normalise and re harden my knife tomorrow, but before that; I am really really THANK YOU!!!!!

ps: I am too carefull with this knife since today i have recieved two more orders of this knife just because they have seen the coarse condition and liked the way it seems and feel. I cant wait to show it to you when i finish this prototype version.
 
shgeo said:
I probably don't need to bring ths up, but all the temperatures we (Americans) have quoted here are in °F. Bohler/Uddeholms temperature range is 990°C to 1050°C.

Just so we don't confuse you with our measurement system. The US joins the Republic of Tonga as the only countries still on the "English" system of weights and measures.

http://www.bucorp.com/Products/ColdWorkSteels/DataSheets/aisi_d2.pdf
Click to expand...


Thank you mister i will read (no absorb) it, now i am printing the PDF. Also, yes thats very confusing, you Americans known to me as practical people but English system is very old fashioned and confusing, hard to learn and use. I am suprised you continue to use it. (thats my opinion, no offence!!)
 
If your not planning on selling the knife I wouldn't heat treat it again. It sounds like it performs just fine so far, so I would go ahead and use it and see what happens. Use the heck out of it and see how it performs, this could teach you alot.

Another thing, are we absolutely sure that the steel you are using is what we call D2? I noticed you called it Böhler K110. I'm wondering if your not using a different steel than we're thinking of, but have names confused. With all the different standards and things it can be hard to tell sometimes. If there is a composition chart with the steel, it would be very helpful for you to post it here and let someone compare it with what we call D2. If what your using is a more simple steel then heat treating it with the method recommended for D2 will most likely burn it up and ruin it :eek:
 
it is called K110 EN/DIN 1.2379 X155CrVMo121, AISI D2, BS BD2, (composition:C 1.55 Si 0.30 Mn 0.30 Cr 11.5 Mo 0.7 V 1.00 ). The company i purchased this stock is very trustable. The bars i have got has stamps writing "K110". I am pretty sure it is D2.
 
Bohler K110, Uddeholm Sverker 21 and D2 are all the same steel. I haven't used any from Bohler, but I get the Uddeholm frequently. I kind of like the Swedish name-Sverker 21 sort of sounds viking-like.
 
Matt, thanks for the advise. I polished it till 2000 grit and blue paste. After 800 grit paper sanding the hamon is started to dissapear and after finishing over temper line is barely seen only from an angle. I did as you said, when chopping food, bread and other organic material the blade performed just fine. Then i treated the knife as a normal knife not an art creation. The blade is left with the other knives and forks etc i shook them, pretending it was used by a messy housewife. Then i checked the edge and yes you guys were RIGHT as always been. There was little little dents all over the edge. They were very small as it could be said micro-chips. When i examined these dents with magnifying glass they were little bents to left or right. So i figured there were happened semi hardening as the blade was much more harder than it was normalised but never fully hardened. The hamon look may be because the spine was never heated to non magnetic so it had all pearlite and cementite but at the edge there was some lucky martensite formation but it was not fully transformed. Shgeo & Dan were definetely right that i have to re-HT the blade. And no Matt the blade was not supposed to sell but after it has shown it self some buyers appeared. So now i have to re-do it correctly.

Thanks to you all again. I promise as soon as it has finished i will borrow a digicam to post and share this beauty, as it has been done not just by me but by a bunch "KnifeMaker"s; cause your info were invaluable.
 
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