Hamon ran towards the edge, what did I do wrong?

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Dec 28, 2022
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I tried my first hamon a few days ago using 1/8” 1084 and rutland black furnace cement. I applied it about 1/8” thick on both sides of the blade and let it air dry overnight, until it was no longer squishy. Heat treated in my forge and quenched in canola oil. I left it in the oil until it was room temp, so that heat from the spine wouldn’t bleed down to the edge. After cleaning off the cement and starting to polish I did a quick etch in warm vinegar. It appears as though the hamon line bled down towards the edge. More on one side of the blade than the other to boot. My question is, where did I go wrong? The two thoughts I had were that the cement was too thick, or I over soaked the steel causing retained heat in the spine to keep the edge from cooling fast enough. Any thoughts from you all with more experience would be much appreciated. Thank you!
 
Hey MasonOstrom MasonOstrom hamons are tricky.

Even folks who do it very regularly don't have perfect results everytime.

There are just so many variables that change the overall result.

First and foremost you have to be using the right steel to get good hamon activity, 1084 isn't the best steel for the job. Will is differentially harden? Yes, will it leave a nice pretty hamon, probably not...

You want to be using something shallow hardening like 1075 or W2 for the best results. You want to be using something more on the lines of Satanite for your clay, and it shouldn't be overly thick, 1/8" is probably fine. You should be trying to harden at the lower end of the austenitizing temperature range say 1475 instead of 1550 for example.

Don't worry about soak time too much, and you don't need to leave it in the quench so long. Don't cover too much of the blade with clay, you want a good bit of it exposed, depending on the style of knife you want probably half (from spine to edge) of the blade exposed.

There are tons of good hamon threads here, use the custom search engine to find them, and read a bunch. Here's the link: https://cse.google.com/cse/publicurl?cx=012217165931761871935:iqyc7cbzhci

I'm not an expert on hamons, there are guys here that really do well with them though. I'm sure they'll be along eventually!

D DevinT Joshua Fisher Joshua Fisher are two who really knock it out of the park with the hamon.
 
Pictures really help, when you are learning and even once you get comfortable taking photos of your clay layout and then the finished hamons can be a great way to track what works and what doesn’t. As mentioned 1084 isn’t the best choice for hamons but the bigger issue in this case is the canola oil, despite it being recommended for people to start with it really isn’t fast enough for shallow hardening steels which 1084 technically is it’s just on the deeper hardening side of what are technically considered water quenching steels. For most knife blades though people opt for fast oils like parks 50 as it’s safer. For hamons you really want as fast of a quench as possible, some argue water gives the best activity but it’s definitely a learning curve to reduce the number of cracked blades you’ll get. Outside of steel choice and quench medium the next two biggest factors to address are geometry and clay application. You want to pre grind your blade to about 80% of your finished geometry, I take my edge down to .040-.050 and 90% to the finished height I want the bevel at. If you clay a blade at full thickness especially using a slow oil you will definitely run into issues and even if the edge does fully harden you’ll likely lose a lot of the hamons activity the further you grind. For your clay I try to go no thicker than 1/16” but that may vary depending on the clay you use and is something you’ll need to experiment with, if you make 3 identical blades pre grind to the same point and clay them one at 1/16” one at 1/8” and one with no clay use the same hardening process for each and see where the hamon line is in comparison to your clay line, if it’s right on your clay line or a touch lower great remember that thickness, if it’s much lower you may be insulating too much meaning too thick on the clay. The no clay sample is to give you an idea of what geometry and stock thickness will do for an auto hamon. Now on to actually heat treating, lower temps seem to give more active hamons mixed with short soak times the balance here is figuring out how short of a soak at a given temp will work, temp too low and soak too short and likely won’t harden properly, longer soak at low temp should harden properly but if you soak too long and too much heat goes to the spine you may not get as much activity. See above that ideally I want my hamon slightly below my actual clay line just barely, that is where I find with a combination of all things I get the best activity. Too hot on your hardening temp and it will likely give just a plain line or it will harden under the clay slightly (which can also be caused if your clay is too thin or flakes off because the steel wasn’t clean) hopefully this helps and shows how many variables go into a good hamon. Start with simple straight lines then move on from that in clay layout once you have a good idea of what does what.
 
Pictures really help, when you are learning and even once you get comfortable taking photos of your clay layout and then the finished hamons can be a great way to track what works and what doesn’t. As mentioned 1084 isn’t the best choice for hamons but the bigger issue in this case is the canola oil, despite it being recommended for people to start with it really isn’t fast enough for shallow hardening steels which 1084 technically is it’s just on the deeper hardening side of what are technically considered water quenching steels. For most knife blades though people opt for fast oils like parks 50 as it’s safer. For hamons you really want as fast of a quench as possible, some argue water gives the best activity but it’s definitely a learning curve to reduce the number of cracked blades you’ll get. Outside of steel choice and quench medium the next two biggest factors to address are geometry and clay application. You want to pre grind your blade to about 80% of your finished geometry, I take my edge down to .040-.050 and 90% to the finished height I want the bevel at. If you clay a blade at full thickness especially using a slow oil you will definitely run into issues and even if the edge does fully harden you’ll likely lose a lot of the hamons activity the further you grind. For your clay I try to go no thicker than 1/16” but that may vary depending on the clay you use and is something you’ll need to experiment with, if you make 3 identical blades pre grind to the same point and clay them one at 1/16” one at 1/8” and one with no clay use the same hardening process for each and see where the hamon line is in comparison to your clay line, if it’s right on your clay line or a touch lower great remember that thickness, if it’s much lower you may be insulating too much meaning too thick on the clay. The no clay sample is to give you an idea of what geometry and stock thickness will do for an auto hamon. Now on to actually heat treating, lower temps seem to give more active hamons mixed with short soak times the balance here is figuring out how short of a soak at a given temp will work, temp too low and soak too short and likely won’t harden properly, longer soak at low temp should harden properly but if you soak too long and too much heat goes to the spine you may not get as much activity. See above that ideally I want my hamon slightly below my actual clay line just barely, that is where I find with a combination of all things I get the best activity. Too hot on your hardening temp and it will likely give just a plain line or it will harden under the clay slightly (which can also be caused if your clay is too thin or flakes off because the steel wasn’t clean) hopefully this helps and shows how many variables go into a good hamon. Start with simple straight lines then move on from that in clay layout once you have a good idea of what does what.
Thanks for the info! A lot of the reading I did said any 10xx series steel would work well for Hamon, but I guess not. I’ll keep playing with clay layout, and heating and quenching conditions and see what I can come up with.
 
Thanks for the info! A lot of the reading I did said any 10xx series steel would work well for Hamon, but I guess not. I’ll keep playing with clay layout, and heating and quenching conditions and see what I can come up with.
Key things to look for in steels for hamons is little to no alloys, you want very low manganese which is a key component that effects deep versus shallow hardening, the lower the better but the fast your quench needs to be, too high and you just don’t get the best activity and you are working against yourself. 1084 is a exception in the 10xx steels that are often lower in manganese and alloys by having a fairly high manganese content making it slightly deeper hardening (you should still quench in parks 50 speed oil canola is less than ideal) chrome is another alloy that effects how steel hardens and a little bit of chrome can makes steels deeper hardening which is ideal for other applications but bad for hamons so too much chrome (5160, 80crv2, 8670, 52100) all result in negative effects on hamon formation and activity. For example you can technically edge quench 5160 and get a quench line that can mimic the appearance of a hamon although typically being much straighter, but I would not consider that to be a hamon and atleast to me I can tell them apart quite easily in appearance. The more complex the steel in alloy components or the deeper hardening the less desirable it is for hamons or in cases is not even capable of taking a true hamon. Some of the best options in my opinion would be 1050-1075 assuming lower manganese, 1095 (one of my last choices just because I think there are better cleaner steels) W1 & W2 with w2 being preferred, 26c3, Sheffcut (new steel from the UK) Hitachi white paper steels if you can get it (difficult to source and is often pre clad with mild or stainless which isn’t what I’d want for hamons but if you can get it in monosteel or unclad it’s super clean and low in manganese) many compare 26c3 to the hitachi white paper steels and I’d agree other than 26c3 has some chrome in it which is great for ease of hardening but does effect hamons slightly.
 
Where have you been sourcing the W2?
As far as I know NJSB is one of the only sources in the US for new W2 most other suppliers get it from them and resell it. That said I usually get mine from Pops Knife Supply since I can get other steels that I use as well as handle materials/other misc stuff at the same time.
 
Maybe try water instead of canola oil?
I’ve considered trying it, but I don’t want to break blades and I have not found a source for a reliable method of water quenching. Most I’ve seen is about a 50% success rate. That has just been from my limited online research, though. I’m sure there is a more reliable method out there.
 
I’ve considered trying it, but I don’t want to break blades and I have not found a source for a reliable method of water quenching. Most I’ve seen is about a 50% success rate. That has just been from my limited online research, though. I’m sure there is a more reliable method out there.
Get yourself some Parks 50. It is a fast oil that was formulated to approach the quench speed of water while mitigating most of the risks of water quenching. Plus, it’s a proper oil to use for most of the steels you will be making knives from, hamon or not.
 
Warm water is less severe than cold water quench. The warmer the better.

Hoss
I thought about that. If I ever try a water quench I was thinking about using boiling water to reduce the stress on the steel.
I was also thinking about just touching the edge to the water for a second then removing, the retouch the edge a little deeper, remove again, then deeper, and so on until the blade is cooled sufficiently. Would this be counter productive to hardening or is this a good method to reduce stress on the steel during water quenching?
 
I thought about that. If I ever try a water quench I was thinking about using boiling water to reduce the stress on the steel.
I was also thinking about just touching the edge to the water for a second then removing, the retouch the edge a little deeper, remove again, then deeper, and so on until the blade is cooled sufficiently. Would this be counter productive to hardening or is this a good method to reduce stress on the steel during water quenching?
It’s called interrupted quench, yes it works, might take some practice.

Hoss
 
A "water" quench is actually a brine quench. Use about 3-4 pounds of salt in 5 gallons of water. Heat the quench to 120°F/50°C. Even the best smiths will break blades in water/brine.

What I use is an interrupted quench in Parks #50 oil. I quench the blade for 3 seconds, pull it out for three seconds, then back in to cool. I go QUENCH - two three - OUT - two- three- Back in for at least 60 seconds. Immediate temper. Almost never a cracked or broken blade. Hamon looks good.

I find the biggest problem with most folks trying for a hamon is trhe wrong type clay put on much too thick. Satanite works very well, is cheap, and can be adjusted in thickness/viscosity easily.
Ads a rule, too thin a layer of clay is far more likely to get a great hamon than too thick.
 
A "water" quench is actually a brine quench. Use about 3-4 pounds of salt in 5 gallons of water. Heat the quench to 120°F/50°C. Even the best smiths will break blades in water/brine.

What I use is an interrupted quench in Parks #50 oil. I quench the blade for 3 seconds, pull it out for three seconds, then back in to cool. I go QUENCH - two three - OUT - two- three- Back in for at least 60 seconds. Immediate temper. Almost never a cracked or broken blade. Hamon looks good.

I find the biggest problem with most folks trying for a hamon is trhe wrong type clay put on much too thick. Satanite works very well, is cheap, and can be adjusted in thickness/viscosity easily.
Ads a rule, too thin a layer of clay is far more likely to get a great hamon than too thick.
When you quench, are you submersing the whole blade or just the edge?
 
The whole blade.
If you quenched just the edge the heat from the rest would travel down to the edge as you pulled it out and wipe out any hamon as well as get a very poor hardening.
 
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