Hamon, why not?

Chiro75

Chiro75

Joined
Feb 4, 1999
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I got the picture below from Fogg's forum. I circled a couple things of his hamon (these "wisps" in the hamon are ashi, no?). My question is how do you get these? This is the activity that is missing from my hamon. What I want to know is this: do these "wisps" form under the clay "stripes" that Engath describes as being the first step in his clay coating procedure? He describes using a palette knife or something along those lines, getting a bit of Satanite on it, and smacking the side of the blade to transfer it like a line of goop to the side of the blade. After doing that at regular intervals, then he puts a thicker coating toward the middle/spine of the blade of clay.

So, do these wisps come from that, or what? This is the only thing, other than forging, that I do not do on my blades, and I don't see these wisps in my hamon, so is that why?
 

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Those are tough -- especially if you'd like a controlled "line" and the ashi. I just pulled some good long "ghost" ashi on a blade that I had no clay on it. I'd have to check my notes, but I think it was a 3/4 quench in AAA (slower oil) that caused the legs. The heat from the spine basically creates the activity as it cools slower (Matt Williams is a good person to talk to about that one). Not sure how Don gets his because he does full quenches.

I've been taking a lot of notes and recently have done a batch of seven simple blades with a variety of clay coats, quenchants, and quench depths. I'll let you know how they turn out when I get around to grinding on them.
 
Hmmmmmmm. So, you're saying you've seen them doing edge quenches? I dunk my clay coated blades all the way in. I never thought about clay coating AND edge quenching at the same time. Damn. Thanks!
 
heck -- don't even need clay. ;) I'll get a pic tonight and post it. Of course, that is just one option -- there are many different ways to do it. If I had an inkling I would think that Fogg possibly uses different thicknesses of clay-coating to get some of the activity, but not sure.

Mayhaps Nick will chime in -- like he and Fogg have both said, the clay doesn't make the line, you make it with your heat-treat and the clay just helps guide it.
 
Ultimately, yes. They have a major influence in the character of the line.

Don has pictures on his site of how he applies the clay to a bowie.

Really though, with Don, I think he just wiggles his nose and snaps his fingers and VIOLA!!! :D

Just kidding... Don has put his heart and soul into "painting with crystals," and does some of the coolest hamon work I've seen. I've seen a pretty good amount of Japanese swords in the last 5 years, and many did not have the mind blowing hamon that Don can create on even a small shiv.

But like Burch said...it's always time/temp. Your choice in steel and quenchant has a very big impact on this as well (IMHO).

-Nick-
 
So, is 1095 and automatic transmission fluid a bad choice to try to do this with?
 
1095 and ATF is good for hamons. The smoky fingers I get are usually under the clay, but sometimes there is no rhyme or reason to getting these. Hamons will drive a normal knife maker insane :) they are addictive and will keep you awake at night :) The close up is 1060 clay coated and fully quenched in oil. The other bowie is W2 clay coated and edge quenched in oil, alot of activity in this one. Hamons are very difficult to photograph.

Don Hanson
 
Dude, your blades keep me up at night thinking "now how did he do that . . . ." That hamon you showed me in St. Louis was spectacular. The ashi looked like little crystal "lines" sort of like the one you posted.

Don is right, hamons are bad and I am obsessed with them. :D
 
I forgot to say earlier, Nick has also said before and he is right.
Time and Temp is most important in producing a lot of activity in the hamon.
Too much heat and no wisps or ashi.

Don Hanson
 
Crap, I was hoping for an easier answer. This is what I end up with, usually, which isn't shabby, but I want the ashi! Gimme! :D I hate this. I reach a certain level of knifemaking, and the answers are no longer "do this, do that" but rather "Gee, if I knew I'd tell you. Try, try, try and if you figure it out let me know." Damn! Life was easier when I needed to know what size drill bit I need for a 1/8" hole. :grumpy: :rolleyes:
top10hamon1.jpg
 
Oh, and one thing I noticed mentioned in the Fogg link is how thick some people spread their clay. I get in a rush with things, so I'm going to try using the Satanite I have instead of my old standby (furnace cement), actually do the "hitting the edge of a palette knife on the blade" maneuver, and let it dry for a few days before I torch it. Dangit.
 
I don't understand this hamon thing at all!
Yeah it looks ok and it's kind of nostalgic cause that's how the old blades looked cause they were made of a chunk of good steel welded onto a chunk of lesser steel, but I still don't get it. It doesn't make the blade any better use wise. With todays steels there's no need to have a weak spine.
Are the asthetics the reason you guys get into this so much??
Oh boy, can of worms time! :D
 
L6, I do it for the aesthetics. I love the way they look, I love the uncertainty of how they'll come out. There's some mystery. I think they add another level of beauty to a knife, and I guarantee that my customers agree! :D
 
Experiment, Experiment, Experiment.

Start watching what happens to the steel in the forge. Get some good glasses to block the UV from the forge. Study the heat as it gets drawn into the steel. Watch it for the magic at the moment when it shimmers and breathes......

Then quench the sucker :)

Surfing anyone?

attachment.php
 
A clay hardened blade does not have a "weak spine." It has a spine with a Pearlite structure.

The love for the beauty of a hamon is definitely in the eye of the beholder. I've heard questions like, "Why is the blade two different colors?" "Why is there this funny bunch of lines and stuff in the blade?" blah blah blah.

Some people like blondes, some like brunettes, etc. Some see beauty in a spectacular hamon, some don't. I think blades that aren't hand sanded and are left with a belt finish are ugly, some like them.

I appreciate the art and skill that must go into a blade at the fire to create a hamon. It is a blend of both the science of heat-treat with a bunch of art thrown in.

If you don't like them, you don't like them. Nothing wrong with that.

IF it's been done properly, I don't think it takes away from the lines of the knife, I think it adds a great deal of character and life to the blade. But that's just me :) :) :)

-Nick-

*edited* so that I don't get "a-hole" red chiclets :rolleyes:
 
Very nice mark!! That last one from you Don is outstanding!

Here's one I just shot to show that you don't have to use clay to get ashi. This is just taken to 320 and etched in FC. I can't wait to finish this one up. :)
 

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