Hamon

Joined
Jun 4, 2023
Messages
773
A bit of a daft question, but does a Hamon go all the way through the steel? Or is it a surface condition, common sense tells me all through, but checking as I am hardening some un-ground 2mm thick 1084 and grinding the bevels afterwards.
 
The cross section of the hamon looking down the blade of the knife are frequently if not usually v-shaped because the steels used for hamon are shallow hardening. It will be all the way through partway up from the edge but will eventually form a "V" up the blade before the externally visible etched portion ends.
 
Thanks fitzo, Do I want the clay thick enough so that the quenching effect shoots up through the edge rather than cooling through the clay?

Blades are 30mm tall.
 
I keep the clay at about the thickness of a popsicle stick. Too thick and the area that does not harden will be extended past the edge of the clay, making your hamon farther towards the edge than you want it. This has been the case for me on 1075 from Aldo and 26c3. Can’t speak to how much it effects other steels
 
Sorry for this but more question, is the clay acting as an insulator to slow down the jominy effect from the unclayed edge or slowing the quench from outside?
 
The way I learned, you start with a light clay wash of the entire blade. This will protect the edge a bit but not radically slow cooling. That is the easy part. Then you learn though trial and error how thick, how far down, pattern, yada yada, you have to use the clay to get what you want. It is an art backed entirely by science.

So, the edge cools from the quench. Heat will keep traveling to the cooler parts, so keep it in the quench. The clay provides the insulation to keep the upper portion of the blade in the F+C area under the cooling curve, IIRC. Sorry I'm not more help. Haven't done an oil quench since 2010.
 
Thanks everyone it is becoming a bit clearer for me,
Fitzo, so the retained heat is more powerful than the quenching effect, there must be some complicated maths in that somewhere.
 
Thanks everyone it is becoming a bit clearer for me,
Fitzo, so the retained heat is more powerful than the quenching effect, there must be some complicated maths in that somewhere.
When one with some coursework in math and physics but not metallurgy stops to think about the math that describes this, I suspect they get as befuddled as I by the obvious near-chaotic complexity. This is math wayyy beyond stopping at diffyQ. But I bet the math exists. :)
 
Remember that we are dealing with quite quick cooling rates, 100 degrees c per second or more, and a few seconds to keep it out of the pearlite region. Steel and clay are not good conductors of heat, and we only need a small disruption here.
 
Here is some info I wrote in the past on yaki-ire and attaining a hamon:

Forge
- holding the steel in a small forge at an exact temperature for 10 minutes without heating beyond 1425F ,eg., is difficult. Use a full size forge and soak it well for at least 15 minutes. Adding a PID controller to the forge and using a muffle could help.

Quenchant - the quench speed is everything in attaining a hamon. Using any oil will decrease the activity. Using vegetable oil in lieu of a fast commercial quenchant (like Parks #50) will further decrease the results (or virtually eliminate them).
Try to learn the quench using brine. Once you have it just about mastered....you will probably go back to fast oil.

Steel - the steel needs to be as shallow hardening as possible. Little or no alloy content. .70-1.00% carbon, and .30 or less Manganese is the perfect steel, but such a mix is hard to find. The usual suspects are 1070-1095, W-1, and W-2, 26C3.
Alloy steels like 5160,52100, (and, obviously, stainless steels) will not work.

Clay - coat the entire blade with a thin wash coat and let it dry. Recoat the shielded areas with a second coat of clay between 1/16" and 1/8" coat. Too much clay is bad. Too little is rarely a problem.
What the clay is isn't nearly as important as how it is applied.
I like satanite, but APG#36 or Rutlands are also good. Satanite is best, IMHO, because you mix it fresh every time and to the exact consistence you want. Properly applied, it stays on the blade well in HT. Commercial products like Nu-clayer are great but expensive.
Start with a thin wash coat over the whole baled. Mix the satanite to a consistency of cream (very thin). Let that dry (a hair dryer helps). Once dry, add a little more satanite powder to the satanite pot and make it like thin pancake batter or thin sour cream. Apply in a fairly thin layer to make the hamon pattern. 1/16" to 1/8" is all you need. Dry well and HT.

BTW, this procedure is called yaki ire.

Condition of the steel - any blade being quenched needs to be ready for the stress it will be under, but shallow hardening steels need it the most. Properly normalize/stress relieve the blade before the clay coating. Sand the surface smooth and remove every grind mark. Eliminate any possible stress risers, such as sharp corners or edges. Leave plenty of edge meat, about .040", and round the edge. Round off all edges a tad (many folks mistakenly grind the edge and spine to a prefect flat surface, which creates a sharp 90-degree angle with the flat sides). Sharp corners are where cracks will start and snap the blade in half with the dreaded "PING". For the same reason don't put in notches, chouls, or jimping until after hardening.

The quench - Plunge the blade straight in the tank (vertical or horizontal), hold the blade still for about 2 or 3 seconds, to allow the edge to cool below the pearlite nose, and then pull it out for 2-3 seconds. Put it back and let it cool to below the martensite. Don't remove it from the warm oil for at least two or three minutes. Gently clean off any clay still stuck on, and snap temper at 300°F immediately for 30 minutes Do the full tempers for the desired hardness as soon as is practical. Any straightening should be done at the tempering temperature on the second cycle.
Resist the temptation to pull it from the oil/brine and give it a quick grind and dip in the FC to see the results. Cracks will likely form while you do that if the steel isn't snap tempered quickly after quench.

If doing a water quench you will have to work out your own in-out timing. For brine and fast oil I use, IN-1-2-3-OUT-1-2-3-Back in. The immediate post quench temper still applies.
 
MORE INFO:
A hamon forms in shallow hardening steels. Any alloy ingredient will make the steel deeper hardening, and thus wash out or block the formation of the hamon. 5160, 52100, O-1, D-2, and other higher allow steels are not suitable for hamon development.

A short course in hamon formation may be in order:
A simple steel has carbon and iron. Anything else is an alloy ingredient. W2 has about 1% carbon and 98.25% iron. There is also a .25% amount of manganese, silicon, and vanadium (typical assay). These alloy amounts are small enough to have little effect on the hardenability. Be aware that all W2 and other steels don't always have the perfect alloy specs. Get a cert with any steel you buy.

When the steel is heated to about 1450F, the carbon goes into solution, and forms a structure called austenite. Upon cooling the steel can do one of several things. If cooled slower than one second to get below 900F, it will form pearlite, a soft structure of steel. If cooled fast enough to miss this "pearlite Nose", the steel will remain as supercooled austenite until it reaches about 400F, where it will start converting into martensite. Martensite is the hard steel we want for cutting tools. Besides the hardness, martensite and pearlite have different crystaline and visual properties. They also react differently to etching.

Now, when the clay coated blade is heated to the austenitization point, and then quenched in water/brine/fast oil, the edge immediately cools to below the pearlite nose, and at 400F converts into martensite. The clay insulated spine retains its heat, and cools slower, thus converting into pearlite. The junction of the two structures is the hamon. This area is a mixture of fine pearlite, coarse pearlite, and martensite crystals. In my early days studying metallurgy this structure was called Troosite, but now we just call it a mixes structure.
Highlighting the effects of this transition area by proper polishing and etching to bring out the optical characteristics of these structures is the skill required in shiage-togi.
The final hamon you get is somewhat of a mystery, but the methods are not.

I have posted several hamon tutorials in the past, but here is a simple guide for a suguha hamon:

Start with a blade that has been through foundation shaping (shitaji togi to form the basic sugata), and is ready for yaki-ire. Normalize the blade before HT. The condition of the steel before HT will greatly affect the final results. Coarse pearlite with fine grain is the desired structure to start with.

Note - While not everyone agrees, it seems that machine work (grinders and milling machines) can create stresses that show up in the final hamon results. Many smiths make the blade by whatever method they wish (forging is the usual way), and then anneal or normalize the blade. After that they do all the shaping work with stones and files. If you are having issues with blades cracking, try shaping by hand with files and stones.

Applying the clay:
Make a simple stand/clamp that will hold the blade by the tang and allow you to work with both hands. The ability to rotate the blade and work both sides is important. A trip to Harbor Freight will yield some inexpensive clamps that rotate. Mount the clamp firmly so you can sit or stand by the blade and do the clay work.
If you are married, or have a good partner, Don't do clay coating in the kitchen.

I recommend that you use satanite for the clay. You will read about AP-green, Atlas/Rutland furnace cement, etc., but satanite is cheap, reliable, and works perfect.

Make a thin mix, about like heavy cream, and apply a wash to the whole blade. Dry with a hair dryer or heat gun.

Thicken the mix with more satanite until it is about like sour cream. Apply this to the spine area, bringing it down toward the edge. Stop about 1/4" before the edge. Do the same to the other side. Use a popsicle stick to smooth the layers to about 1/16" to 1/8" thick. Take your fingers and wipe the edge in a straight line, removing the excess along the edge. This will leave the ha exposed for about 1/4". The pattern you leave in the exposed steel will shape the hamon. Dry the blade with the hair dryer.
Note: If you as doing a blade that you wish to control sori somewhat, you can wipe the satanite off the mune (spine).

Do yaki-ire as desired, keeping the austenitizing temperature on the lower side. For example, 1070 says "1450°-1525°F" Try 1450°F.
After quench, clean the blade and examine the edges for ha-giri - tiny cracks running from the edge inward. If there, discard the blade and start again.

After a snap temper, a light sanding, followed by a quick dip in FC may show the potential hamon line. This is not the final result, just a confirmation of different structures in the blade.

If inspection goes well, do the final shitaji-togi (foundation polishing) - the hamon may not be visible at all at this point. Get all the shaping right at this stage. Removal of excess metal will not be possible in the next stage.

Please Note:
The blade will be getting sharp as you do togi. Use caution as you go, and extreme caution in the final stages of shiage-togi. Misuse of things like hazuya stones and nugui can lead to having no fingerprints ... or fingertips if not done right. Doing a hybrid polish instead of traditional togi on your first several blades is a good idea.

Continue onto shiage-togi (finish polishing), where the hamon will start to re-appear.

Use of a variety of methods and etchants can bring the subtleties of the hamon out in the final steps. Ther are many articles and threads on doing this

General notes:
The hamon will not be exactly where the clay stops. Experience, and your own equipment will teach you how to place the hamon.

If the hamon does not appear to have developed, re-do the clay work and HT.

Note that fast oil is safer, but any hamon will be faint or may not exist at all. Brine will develop the best activity (hataraki). Brine will crack some blades until you get it mastered ... somewhat. Water is wonderful for a hamon, but will break a lot of blades.

More complex hamon, greater hataraki, ashi, and other features can be developed by changing the shape of the edge of the thicker clay line. Make the line wavy and you can get notare; poke it with a stick into small ridges and get Choji or many other patterns; make small lines to the edge with a slightly thinned slurry and create ashi.
Another thing that affects the hamon is the niku (meat) of the blade toward the edge. The amount of thickness and grind shape toward the edge affects the quench and how fast the steel cools. I like a slight apple-seed grind.

Info for polishing the hamon:
I have several articles on hybrid polishing but a short list of the agents that will help develop a hamon are:
Diluted HCl ( 100:1), FC, lemon juice
chromium oxide
red iron oxide
black iron oxide (magnetite)
tin oxide, FC
fine SC grit
3M polishing papers ( 400-8000)
Choji or other pure oil
Flitz polish
1.25" round gun cleaning patches.....lots of them!

Other supplies:
White enamel paint (Testors) and finer sable brushes
popsicle sticks
Tough painters tape to mask areas off (Frog tape)


There are several good books on the subject, and some good DVD's.
A few are:
Walter Sorrells - Hamon (and his entire set on Japanese blades)
Setsuo Takaiwa - The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing (I highly recommend this book)
Clive Sinclaire - Samurai Swords
 
Hello Guys,

I need some help here? If you would be so kind.

Hamon.jpg

I know this has worked because I can feel the dimensional differences between the Martensite and the pearlite mixture, do I need to sand all the blade flat and get rid of the dimensional differences then etch it until the hamon appears.

I am stuck.

Why are some hamons very black on the pearlite and others very black on the martensite, I have a feeling its different etch materials but what will it be if i just keep polishing and polishing.
 
Last edited:
As long as you don't etch too deep, you can keep trying several methods on the same blade. Sure, you might have to sand back with 220 to 'reset' the finish, but so what. Try hand sanding to 1000, etch for 20 seconds in diluted FC. Then use polishing paper (like 9 micron) and see what it looks like. Etch for a minute, then polish/sand with 2000. Like it? Try polishing with Flitz or Simichrome (my favorite) using a cloth and your finger.

Personally I prefer a coffee etch/patina over FC. A little polishing, a little more coffee. Etc.

I guess I don't even have an answer for you other than there is no right or foolproof way ... sorry.

Heck I still don't have a set method - I think I'm chasing shadows too.
 
An aside question, please forgive the OT, but has anyone measured the pH of this coffee treatment solution?
 
Hello Guys,

I need some help here? If you would be so kind.

View attachment 2383561

I know this has worked because I can feel the dimensional differences between the Martensite and the pearlite mixture, do I need to sand all the blade flat and get rid of the dimensional differences then etch it until the hamon appears.

I am stuck.

Why are some hamons very black on the pearlite and others very black on the martensite, I have a feeling its different etch materials but what will it be if i just keep polishing and polishing.
Currently the white area on the upper portion of that blade is all decarb and is only showing the outline of your clay and not the true hamon, youll need to remove a good bit to get down past that before you’ll really starting seeing the hamon and can worry about how to finish it, in general I find etching in ferric gives a dark ashi and a polished finish or a nitric etch leaves a white ashi as for the entire upper portion remaining dark or vice versa that usually is due to careful polishing of only one section. Hamons will also look different in different lighting so sometimes a picture can be deceiving depending on how the lighting was setup and the angle of the photo.
 
Thanks Guys,
I have been really excited by the possibilities with this process, I have not touched it since it came out of the anneal as I didn't want to mess it up!

As long as you don't etch too deep, you can keep trying several methods on the same blade. Sure, you might have to sand back with 220 to 'reset' the finish, but so what. Try hand sanding to 1000, etch for 20 seconds in diluted FC. Then use polishing paper (like 9 micron) and see what it looks like. Etch for a minute, then polish/sand with 2000. Like it? Try polishing with Flitz or Simichrome (my favorite) using a cloth and your finger.

Personally I prefer a coffee etch/patina over FC. A little polishing, a little more coffee. Etc.

I guess I don't even have an answer for you other than there is no right or foolproof way ... sorry.

Heck I still don't have a set method - I think I'm chasing shadows too.

Thanks Sando, I was afraid to "reset" the finish just in case I somehow messed it up. I have not wrapped my brain around all of this yet. when I look at the picture again I notice an accidental coffee cup ring next to it, (how embarrassing) that might be an omen for the direction to take. You have given me a bit of confidence to experiment a bit, to be fair I was not happy with first couple of dabs of the clay so experimented a bit with the application and i think I got it a bit better although made the whole thing inconsistent, I am hoping the other side comes out quite a bit different, in a good way or if its a fail I will learn something.

Currently the white area on the upper portion of that blade is all decarb and is only showing the outline of your clay and not the true hamon, youll need to remove a good bit to get down past that before you’ll really starting seeing the hamon and can worry about how to finish it, in general I find etching in ferric gives a dark ashi and a polished finish or a nitric etch leaves a white ashi as for the entire upper portion remaining dark or vice versa that usually is due to careful polishing of only one section. Hamons will also look different in different lighting so sometimes a picture can be deceiving depending on how the lighting was setup and the angle of the photo.

Thanks Josh, I did not realize that de-carb could occur under the clay! intuitively I thought it would be a barrier to oxygen but had not researched it really. I wanted a bit of "action" near the spine, accepting the risk of fracture so glad that did not happen! The picture is straight out of the anneal, so I had assumed that the edge taking the temper and the spine area not taking it was a good sign. I did a bit of googling on polishing Japanese style and was surprised to read that the polishing apprenticeship was longer than the forging apprenticeship! I am going to have a crack at today and if I mess it up so what, I will probably mess up the handle anyway. :)

Thanks again guys for taking time out to help and advise!

I keep thinking that all these hair-brained experiments are a waste of time bit then on the other hand I think I am learning the basics and it can only result in better more consistent knives. 🙏
 
yaki-ire isn't something you just do and are done. After the claying and quench you need to remove the surface metal and expose the transitions between the martensite and pearlite plus etch to expose the crystals of nie and nioi. The polishing and etching are what exposes the hamon. (I'm probably the last guy alive who still refers to these structures as Troosite)

After quench and removal of the clay you don't have a hamon. You have a quenched blade with surface decarb-oxides-and other features. The transition where the clay line was is often topographical (it is also not likely to be where the actual hamon is). This is just the start and not the finished product. All that surface has to be removed.

After quench and some basic cleanup to 400 grit you may see the hamon sometimes. Often you will see nothing until it is etched. Even if you see it, it isn't usually all that is there.

My Hamon tips:
Use a low alloy low manganese steel. My order of preference for readily available steels is - Hitachi white paper, W-2 (low Mn), 26C3.

Etch with very weak acids. 10:1 FC up to 15:1 is a good hamon etchant for most folks.
100:1 nitric acid is also good.
Other acids used are fresh lemon juice and white vinegar.
The etchant is often worked along the hamon features by rubbing with a pad soaked in the acid. Wear gloves if you don't want stained fingers and mushy skin. Makeup cleaning pads and gun cleaning pads are perfect for shiagi-togi task.

Clay wash with a very thin clay mix and then clay the proposed hamon THIN. 1/16" is more than enough. 1/8" and thicker are far too thick. The hamon does not fall exactly on the clay line and some experimentation will be needed to place it where you want. Steel thickness greatly controls the movement of the hamon (as well as alloying),

Let the clay dry! Use a hair dryer of fan if needed, but let it completely dry before putting in the oven or forge. Fast drying in the forge or flames isn't a good idea.

Austenitize on the lower range of the steel using. If the hardening range is 1445° to 1490°, use 1445°. An oven is far better than a forge for this.

Quench in a fast oil. I recommend Parks #50.
Brine is an extreme quenchant and can crack blades. It makes a great hamon, but takes its toll on your nerves and blades. No one like the dreaded TINK.

Interrupt the quench - IN 1--2-3, OUT 1-2-3, Back in until cooled. You may have to experiment with the timing.

Develop the hamon by selective hand polishing with very fine powders. Ther is a whole array of oxides and grit compounds used to get different looks.
I like a frosty duller and darker finish above the hamon (ji) and a shiny polish below (ha). Use the corner of a folded makeup pad to work the area below and above the hamon line to get shiny bright and darker areas. Use a different pad for each compound/oxide. Selective final etching post-polishing can greatly accentuate the light/dark look.
After the first light polishing of the whole blade (somewhere between 400 grit and 1000) leave the actual hamon line alone and work the areas above and below it. This creates a frosted white line for the hamon.
NEVER buff a hamon on a polishing wheel buff. It will wipe out most of the visible details and you will have to start polishing again.

Pro-polishing tips - Use glass or plastic "petri dish" containers for the polishes and oxides. Keep the pad used with that compound in the dish. They stack neatly and store in a plastic small box with all your other hamon polishing supplies. A 20 pack is $10.
Use a pointed popsicle stick on the pad for polishing small and tight areas along the hamon or ashi. I like 22 calibre gun gleaning pads for these areas.
Empty and refill the water dip bowl when you change grits/oxides/compounds.
Use nail polish or model paint to mask the hamon and ashi as needed while polishing above and below it. Remove it with acetone or other solvent when done.
 
Try rubbing it with a dill pickle. Takes a while. Can have neat effects. Not a joke...
 
Back
Top