I was looking at getting a 220 grit Norton to go with my unknown (couldnt read it) 800 grit stone. I've been having trouble with the 800. I can almost get push cutting edges, but not quite, and the edge it leaves is coarser than the Coarse Norton I have. Of course that Norton is very old and well used. For good cutting edges, waterstones seem to be the choice, and I want to practice my hand sharpening. Would a 4000/8000 combo be the next step, or would just a 4000 do? They also have a natural Chinese fine waterstone at the woodworking shop where I'm planning to buy the stuff. Goes for about $20. Could this be used directly after the 800? The 800 seems to cut faster when I use light to moderate pressure. Right now I'm using the sharpmaker after the 800. Would the combo or Chinese stone give a noticable improvement? I plan to make a loaded wooden strop soon, just to try it. Right now I get very sharp edges off my HF belt sander, but, as I learned on my Schrade, that chews up the knife very quickly. Also, the bevel is whatever I hold at the time, and doesnt match my sharpmaker all the time. Any help is appreciated.
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Hand Sharpening with Waterstones
- Thread starter me2
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It is not easy, actually pretty difficult, to get a really shaving edge from a waterstone in the 800 grit range. Certainly possible, but it requires a fair amount of practice. It gets easy as you progress to finer grits. The Sharpmaker fine compare to about 2000# (give or take a thousand). To add a 1000/4000 grit to your 800 doesn't make much sense to me. If you have a large bevel such as a planar blade or a chisel, you probably want to double your grit on each step, on a knife, were you have much less work to do, you do well with a tripling of grit number and can get away with more. I use 700, 3000, 10000, but I would not hesitate to replace my 3000 with a 5000 if I would find one that I like better. In terms of push-cutting, the ultimate quality of your edge (disregarding your honing skill for a moment) is directly dependent on your final grit. So for ultimate pushcutting ability you should finish of on the finest stone you can affort (and they get pricy).
However, in those regions, the grit size is to be taken with a grain of salt. There are regions between which the stones are distinctly different, but in which the stones are relatively similar: 180-320, 700-1200, 4000-6000, 8000-12000. You will never mistake a 1200 for a 4000, but whether a 12000 actually gives a finer finish than an 8000 might be debatable. In general, yes, but the differences between stones and manufactures are so large that you might get better results with a coarser stone within those bracket.
I hope Yuzuha, joins in here. She is probably by far the most qualified on this forum to answer this question.
The problem with the bevel not matching your Sharpmaker is easily solved: Sharpen on the stone at a substantially lower angle, this way you apply a micro (or mini) bevel with the Sharpmaker and you are golden. No need to match the actual angle.
However, in those regions, the grit size is to be taken with a grain of salt. There are regions between which the stones are distinctly different, but in which the stones are relatively similar: 180-320, 700-1200, 4000-6000, 8000-12000. You will never mistake a 1200 for a 4000, but whether a 12000 actually gives a finer finish than an 8000 might be debatable. In general, yes, but the differences between stones and manufactures are so large that you might get better results with a coarser stone within those bracket.
I hope Yuzuha, joins in here. She is probably by far the most qualified on this forum to answer this question.
The problem with the bevel not matching your Sharpmaker is easily solved: Sharpen on the stone at a substantially lower angle, this way you apply a micro (or mini) bevel with the Sharpmaker and you are golden. No need to match the actual angle.
Cliff Stamp
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Well, HoB pretty much covered it. Sometimes some stones work better on carbon, some stainless, and some stones leave a different surface texture when used for polishing different steels (as in sword polishing). Softer stones generally work better on harder steel and harder stones on softer steels (cutting speed and controlling edge geometry), and some of the 10,000-16,000 grit stones get a bit tricky and need some extra practice (if too soft it is easy to gouge, if too hard you almost have to hold your angle perfectly or you'll round the edge).
The Norton 4k/8k combo would be a good step up after your 800, as would a Shapton pro 2k (my favorite medium grit stone... cuts fast yet leaves a very smooth finish) and a 4k-6k stone (Shapton 5k is nice and people like the King F1 4k), King G1 8k, Kitayama (8k-12k... grit breaks down and gets finer as you work the slurry), Naniwa Snow White 8k and Norton 8k are all good, and other stone freaks that have tried the new Shapton 8k and 16k glass stones seem to like them.
The Chinese stone you mentioned is very dense and feels more like pool-table slate than a sharpening stone, but makes a fairly decent burnishing stone (it isn't an aggressive cutter, especially for modern steels, so is very slow, but does burnish reasonably well). You could try putting a pea sized daub of 1 or 1/2 micron water-soluble diamond paste on it to improve its performance. (polycrystalline works better but is more expensive.... can get several kinds here http://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/products/materials/polishing_supplies.aspx http://www.mtixtl.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=322 or several other places on the web)
The Norton 4k/8k combo would be a good step up after your 800, as would a Shapton pro 2k (my favorite medium grit stone... cuts fast yet leaves a very smooth finish) and a 4k-6k stone (Shapton 5k is nice and people like the King F1 4k), King G1 8k, Kitayama (8k-12k... grit breaks down and gets finer as you work the slurry), Naniwa Snow White 8k and Norton 8k are all good, and other stone freaks that have tried the new Shapton 8k and 16k glass stones seem to like them.
The Chinese stone you mentioned is very dense and feels more like pool-table slate than a sharpening stone, but makes a fairly decent burnishing stone (it isn't an aggressive cutter, especially for modern steels, so is very slow, but does burnish reasonably well). You could try putting a pea sized daub of 1 or 1/2 micron water-soluble diamond paste on it to improve its performance. (polycrystalline works better but is more expensive.... can get several kinds here http://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/products/materials/polishing_supplies.aspx http://www.mtixtl.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=322 or several other places on the web)
Well, I don't know for sure, I haven't played with enough stones, but my guess would be specific to the grit. As good as the edge is from a medium Sharpmaker rod, it takes a bit of effort to get it to shave well, too. I find that it is more and more difficult to get really clean edges the lower in grit you go, you have to be very careful that you don't build a burr (sometimes a single stroke with too much pressure is enough) and you have to go lighter and more and more consistent. But these are only my impressions. I would assume that there are people out there that never go much beyond 1000 grit that approach this completely differently.
Cliff Stamp
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Yeah, I think most people assume coarse edges are just a prep stage, I spent some time awhile back refining the push cutting limits of coarse edges and could get high push cutting performance even with x-coarse DMT stones, several inches on newsprint. Of course finer grits will push cut better, but coarse edges can still be fairly capable in that regard if done well. Dozier has one of the best coarse but still very sharp edges I have seen.
-Cliff
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Me2,
How flat do you keep your no-name 800 grit waterstone? Unless you're using it to make a pretty-looking relief grind, it should place a nice push-cutting edge with a bit of tooth on your blades.
How flat do you keep your no-name 800 grit waterstone? Unless you're using it to make a pretty-looking relief grind, it should place a nice push-cutting edge with a bit of tooth on your blades.
Its not terribly flat. I havent lapped it in about 6 months or so. The finish is quite smooth, but the edge feels very rough. The stone doesnt wear as fast as I thought it would.
I tried again last night, and got a better edge than the first time I tried. I'm using a Rada Cutlery paring knife for these experiments, as far as I can tell about 53 to 55 Rc, 420 stainless. The edge would push cut hair from my knuckles (they quit dragging the ground during my last growth spurt) with some difficulty, and would slice shave well. It would make slices in a papertowel, and cut a plastic grocery bag with some effort. I need to look under my pocket microscope, but the edge feels quite rough. I'm relief grinding at 17 degrees and removing the burr at ~ 22, using very light pressure, 2 fingers holding the knife. I tried Cliff's method of short strokes to remove the burr, but I kept missing spots on the edge. One day I'll sit down and do some serious work with the pocket microscope and the 800 grit stone, instead of once every 2 months.
I tried again last night, and got a better edge than the first time I tried. I'm using a Rada Cutlery paring knife for these experiments, as far as I can tell about 53 to 55 Rc, 420 stainless. The edge would push cut hair from my knuckles (they quit dragging the ground during my last growth spurt) with some difficulty, and would slice shave well. It would make slices in a papertowel, and cut a plastic grocery bag with some effort. I need to look under my pocket microscope, but the edge feels quite rough. I'm relief grinding at 17 degrees and removing the burr at ~ 22, using very light pressure, 2 fingers holding the knife. I tried Cliff's method of short strokes to remove the burr, but I kept missing spots on the edge. One day I'll sit down and do some serious work with the pocket microscope and the 800 grit stone, instead of once every 2 months.
Cliff Stamp
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As that steel should be very easy to grind any issue with burr formation/removal could be minimized with low force on the stone. Nice work with the sharpness in any case, most just leave those steels at a very low sharpness as they can be frustrating to sharpen due to the tendancy to produce a large burr easily.
-Cliff
How does he do it? I've read about his edges for years in the knife magazines.
