Handful of Axe Questions...Profiling/Restoring

[zatch]

So, I have a few questions in regards to re-profiling an axe and restoration.

I have been surfing the axe forum for quite a while now and I'd really like to try my hand at restoring a couple of older axes that I recently received. Advanced apologies for any dumb questions

After plenty of time spent reading various axe information posts/sites (woodtrekker, Axe to Grind, OldJimbo, etc.) I have a few questions about profiling an axe. Everything I have read so far has convinced me that most of the axes I own are thick in comparison to what is desired out of an axe. From what I can tell, it's mostly the cheeks that are too thick. I have a couple of photos of the axes I own as well as the ones I want to restore/refinish.

Here's profile shots of the ones I have...In order, Group shot, Wetterlings Hunter, Wetterlings Wildlife, Husqvarna Hatchet (new model). My assumptions on these are that both the Wetterlings are a bit thick, while the Husky is closer to the profile one would want to achieve.

I know that the profile is task dependent - I have used the Husky and the Wildlife on small wood work, kindling, carving, etc. and had no problems. I didn't use them very hard and didn't notice a significant difference. The Husky is a bit heavier than the Wildlife axe - kindling was a bit easier but that is about all the difference I could tell.

Here are the two oldies. Unmarked hatchet/boy's axe, 2 1/4 Collins.

The eye of the hatchet is pretty buggered up, but I think that it could still be usable for splitting small kindling (that would be it's main job; I'm doing that one for a friend - He dedicates it for his wood-burning stove).

Both are going to get paint stripped and a vinegar bath...it seems like all the hatchet needs is some sanding and edge work. The Collins seems like it would need to be hollowed out a bit around the cheeks and some towards the edge. Thoughts? Also, I am having way too hard of a time removing the rest of the handle from the head There is a large metal wedge that I can't seem to drill around and pounding it out has moved the handle only slightly. Any ideas on that one? The hatchet's handled came out like butter

What I am trying to ask, is in terms of profiling I see two extremes - Very thick and much to concave (cheeks). Is what I am shooting for the middle ground of both those extremes? Very thick seems like it would be suited for splitting only whereas too concave would bind...

Lastly, I have read of people using a hand held random orbital sander, angle grinder (wire wheel), and belt sander for the work I want to do. I don't have any of these currently. Should I use one over the others for profiling? I'm leaning towards the orbital and angle grinder for re-profiling - Hand sanding for the edge work and smoothing out the head (I have used sandpaper by hand before and am just fine with that over belt sander. What would be my best bet?

I'm taking all of this as a learning experience - I have read a lot (maybe not enough ) and actually performed very little. I wouldn't be surprised if I had all of this backwards! However, it has been a really rewarding experience so far, there's a plethora of knowledge on this forum. I mostly do all of this in my spare, short amounts of free time in between college classes and working; I haven't had a ton of free time lately to experiment with all the re-profiling options . Thanks to any responses in advance :thumbup:

 

[Operator1975]

Zatch -

Great question overall. What to do about profile.

Well it is really up to you, I am not sure if there is a sure fire "perfect" answer to that question. There are some variables with it, a few which you already pointed out - functionality, personal specs, etc. But lets see what we can come up with.

If you are looking at the cheeks, and you think they are too thick overall, I would first ask myself, what size/thickness am I desiring? More importantly, why am I desiring this? Is this what someone else has told me or wrote, or is it just for cosmetic purposes? Is it for a weight advantage? If I adjust the thickness of the cheeks, what is my advantage overall? Will I gain a mechanical advantage from doing this? How much work will this take? Will I get a good return on investment overall? What am I using this for, and will my changes help me in the long run?

You can thin the cheeks out if you so desire, but you are looking at some serious time and work. The Collins looks like it would be a challenge. If you are going to work that one over, you will have to have some help, aka grinder of some sort as you mentioned. I use an angle grinder, but only for paint/rust removal. I have never tried to thin out cheeks before. You will also need to make sure you measure correctly in order to make sure one side isnt thicker than the other, possibly throwing off balance overall.

You have to remember those Collins heads (and many other manufacturers back in the day) in the range of 2 to 3 lbs werent trying to win beauty contests, they were meant for basic functionality, and that wedge design did basically that, while being easy to mass produce and sell at a decent price. Hence why you see a lot of them.

Just take your time, and measure correctly. You will be ok in the end. Hope this helps. I rambled some. Sorry.

 

[zatch]

I think the reasoning behind my question lies mostly behind my limited knowledge of the use and functionality behind an axe. Growing up, I didn't have much exposure to axes beyond splitting wood for fire - I have really grown to enjoy learning about axes mostly because of the history (both as a tool over time and the development of the axe in US history) and that an Axe can more than just splitting kindling. My problem is that I don't have much experience in those other uses, hence why I am unsure as to what will work for one thing and not something else.

To me the Collins seems to taper too steeply towards the edge (or lack thereof) - I think that a more gradual taper would really increase it's cutting ability. The Collins would mainly be used for yard duties, like de-limbing, chopping, light splitting, where a thinner edge might be more beneficial than a thicker one. I don't want to go incredibly thin on it, just a bit thinner than what it has right now.

Zatch -

You have to remember those Collins heads (and many other manufacturers back in the day) in the range of 2 to 3 lbs werent trying to win beauty contests, they were meant for basic functionality, and that wedge design did basically that, while being easy to mass produce and sell at a decent price. Hence why you see a lot of them.

Just take your time, and measure correctly. You will be ok in the end. Hope this helps. I rambled some. Sorry.

No beauty contest here Mostly, I'm looking for a fun project to clean up a tool that was gathering rust and maybe improve its functionality if only by a slim margin.

I appreciate your detailed response! Your rambling is educational to me Sure beats mindless class work!

 

[Operator1975]

Zatch -

If you are looking for yard work, that Collins will do as is, as long as it is sharp. Will it technically do better with a slimer profile? Sure.

I get what you are saying about the project part. So I salute you in taking part in it. So lets get that Collins profiled down, and see what you come up with. Remember, first time through you might have to throw yourself a mulligan, and that is fine.

Do you have a belt sander?

 

[zatch]

No belt sander (not yet, at least). I have done everything up until now by hand. I don't mind it. I did use a worksharp for a while (mostly for knives) but got rid of it. I was looking to upgrade to something bigger and haven't pulled the trigger yet. I do most of my axe stuff away from home (I live in an apartment) so even if I bought it, I'd have to wait to get it setup (I haven't had too much free time quite yet).

I do plan on getting a belt sander at some point. I used the worksharp freehanded (no guides) and really liked the results. I read about using a hand sander, and the angle grinder, which leaves me now trying to figure out which one to grab first (not quite ready to buy all three tools at once) and what uses I could get out of each tool.

 

[nickzdon]

There are a number of different opinions on profiling. The Collins definitely looks to be on the wedgy side. The best way to learn what you like is to try a few out and see what suits you. Take it in steps. Thin a little bit, and try it. Thin a little more, try it out again. If need be, it's cheap enough to pick up another head and invest some sweat and elbow grease trying something a little different.

It sounds like you've done a bit of research already, but in case you haven't seen them, here's Peter McLaren's Axe Manual, where he talks about profiling (briefly) and sharpening: http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads/pdf/mclarenmanual.pdf

Also the US Forest Service's "An Axe To Grind" provides some more detail. http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/fspubs/99232823/page15.htm#sharp

These aren't definitive sources, but they may inform how you tackle the task.

I've found when profiling or sharpening it's handy to draw right on the bit with a sharpie to mark out what areas I want to work on. It sands right off. I usually mark it up by either circling or shading the area I want to attack, or by drawing straight parallel lines (usually perpendicular to the bit edge) to see where I'm removing material along the profile, helping to keep it even.

I've done pretty well with just a bastard file. It's slow, but it will allow you to check your work more carefully and make learning from what you're doing a bit easier. But that Collins might need some more muscle. A stationary belt sander will also work. And if you only have a handheld model you can always clamp it upside-down in a bench vise!

 

[cooperhill]

I agree with Nick. I fall on the side of sharpening / profiling by hand. I'll let others speak to the grinder method. The easiest way to bring down the profile is to file down the cheeks. I use a 8" or 10" mill bastard file - filing into the edge to get a fan shape similar to this picture.

A slimmer profile is really effective for chopping and guess it makes light splitting and limbing more effective too.

As Nick referenced above, "An Axe to Grind" is a very helpful manual. There are companion videos that you can find on youtube.

I get what you are saying about the geometry of the axe heads themselves. I'm not sure there is anything you can do to change the wedge shape of the Collins Axe to make it look more like your swedish axes. You should be able to slim down the cheeks somewhat and make it bite in better. Sharpening the bit will help too. Can't hurt to try. A mill bastard file is pretty cheap.

Here's one that I did on my 1900s Breck's Victor axe. Never mind the very curved shape of the bit but I did try and bring the profile down.

 

[Operator1975]

I think if you look at his Collins though, with that wedge profile, to really make it advantageous, you would have to do some serious work on the overall profile from the pole to the bit - in order to get rid of the wedge shape. Using a file on that head I dont think would be worth the time - u need to get after it a little more - and perhaps a grinder could help. For what you showed, yes a file is the way to go no doubt.

 

[zatch]

There are a number of different opinions on profiling. The Collins definitely looks to be on the wedgy side. The best way to learn what you like is to try a few out and see what suits you. Take it in steps. Thin a little bit, and try it. Thin a little more, try it out again. If need be, it's cheap enough to pick up another head and invest some sweat and elbow grease trying something a little different.

It sounds like you've done a bit of research already, but in case you haven't seen them, here's Peter McLaren's Axe Manual, where he talks about profiling (briefly) and sharpening: http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads/pdf/mclarenmanual.pdf

Also the US Forest Service's "An Axe To Grind" provides some more detail. http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/fspubs/99232823/page15.htm#sharp

These aren't definitive sources, but they may inform how you tackle the task.

I've found when profiling or sharpening it's handy to draw right on the bit with a sharpie to mark out what areas I want to work on. It sands right off. I usually mark it up by either circling or shading the area I want to attack, or by drawing straight parallel lines (usually perpendicular to the bit edge) to see where I'm removing material along the profile, helping to keep it even.

I've done pretty well with just a bastard file. It's slow, but it will allow you to check your work more carefully and make learning from what you're doing a bit easier. But that Collins might need some more muscle. A stationary belt sander will also work. And if you only have a handheld model you can always clamp it upside-down in a bench vise!

I have files. I haven't tried using them to thin out the cheeks before - only to rework an edge.

I am pretty comfortable using a belt sander but I do like using files/sandpaper as well. Like you said, it takes more time, but I don't mind it. I'll have to look into clamping a hand held model, that's a cool idea. I may be able to use it for sanding the whole axe and then clamp it down for just the edges or something similar.

I think if you look at his Collins though, with that wedge profile, to really make it advantageous, you would have to do some serious work on the overall profile from the pole to the bit - in order to get rid of the wedge shape. Using a file on that head I dont think would be worth the time - u need to get after it a little more - and perhaps a grinder could help. For what you showed, yes a file is the way to go no doubt.

I agree. The more I think about it, the grinder would be the way to go. I have time, but not THAT much time

 

[nickzdon]

And as always. Keep us posted and post photos! We'd love to see how it goes.

 

[zatch]

I agree with Nick. I fall on the side of sharpening / profiling by hand. I'll let others speak to the grinder method. The easiest way to bring down the profile is to file down the cheeks. I use a 8" or 10" mill bastard file - filing into the edge to get a fan shape similar to this picture.

A slimmer profile is really effective for chopping and guess it makes light splitting and limbing more effective too.

As Nick referenced above, "An Axe to Grind" is a very helpful manual. There are companion videos that you can find on youtube.

I get what you are saying about the geometry of the axe heads themselves. I'm not sure there is anything you can do to change the wedge shape of the Collins Axe to make it look more like your swedish axes. You should be able to slim down the cheeks somewhat and make it bite in better. Sharpening the bit will help too. Can't hurt to try. A mill bastard file is pretty cheap.

Here's one that I did on my 1900s Breck's Victor axe. Never mind the very curved shape of the bit but I did try and bring the profile down.

Yeah, at the very least, I'd like to take the cheeks down just a bit, and sharpen it up. I know I can do that with files, but part of me wants to (if not just to do it and experiment) try bringing them down a bit further. Maybe not quite to the level that I have seen on other axes...

That Victor axe looks cool!

 

[zatch]

And as always. Keep us posted and post photos! We'd love to see how it goes.

Definitely! Thanks for your help (and the McLaren link, I haven't seen that one before. Need to spend some time reading it)!

 

[M3mphis]

I think if you are hoping to "hollow" out the cheeks, the best tool is a 4.5" angle grinder with flap discs. A belt sander is difficult to use for hollowing the cheeks unless you have an appropriately sized contact wheel to break below the plane between the eye and bit.

In any case, if you end up using power tools just mind your heat so that you don't ruin the temper.

Good luck and bring on the pics!

 

[zatch]

I think if you are hoping to "hollow" out the cheeks, the best tool is a 4.5" angle grinder with flap discs. A belt sander is difficult to use for hollowing the cheeks unless you have an appropriately sized contact wheel to break below the plane between the eye and bit.

In any case, if you end up using power tools just mind your heat so that you don't ruin the temper.

Good luck and bring on the pics!

That's what I was thinking of using. I can transport it to wherever I am going rather than haul a belt sander everywhere (though I still plan on getting one).

I plan on taking it very slowly; already compiling pics. I hope it turns out well!

 

[Steve Tall]

I haven't done a major reprofile (yet), but when I do I will be re-reading this info from Old Jimbo (see link).
I would also try for a high centerline between edge and eye, in other words convex from top to bottom.

"...It takes a lot of time to grind the concaves, because the angle grinder is being used on a large surface and you don't want the metal to heat up. Lots of water cooling breaks, and patience! You also have to keep the concaves even on both sides..."

Photo and quote from Old Jimbo
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/vaughangrind.html

 

[zatch]

I haven't done a major reprofile (yet), but when I do I will be re-reading this info from Old Jimbo (see link).
I would also try for a high centerline between edge and eye, in other words convex from top to bottom.

"...It takes a lot of time to grind the concaves, because the angle grinder is being used on a large surface and you don't want the metal to heat up. Lots of water cooling breaks, and patience! You also have to keep the concaves even on both sides..."

Photo and quote from Old Jimbo
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/vaughangrind.html

I've learned a lot from that article, along with this one http://wanderingaxeman.blogspot.com/2011/03/how-to-reprofile-axes-and-hatchets.html

I'll be using both those when I start working (probably Thursday). This is a new venture for me, I'm gonna take it slow and hope I don't mess up. I'll keep that in mind about the high centerline, I was planning on going convex; I'm used to and like convex edges/grinds.

 

[nickzdon]

A bit of a side note, but still related; I just pulled a Collins 3# out of a vinegar bath, and Zatch's post and photo of his Collins bit profile got me thinking about how different the two are. Interesting that 3/4 of a pound difference makes for such different profiles. The stampings between the 2 1/4 and the 3 look quite similar, but not exact so the two axes could be from different time periods of manufacture. So I'm curious what to attribute the difference in profile to. Could it be a different model of axe? or can it be attributed only to the difference in weight? Different periods of manufacture? Anyone know?

 

[zatch]

Wow. I would think that, being pretty close in weight, the profiles would be a lot closer than that (assuming they aren't different models. My guess is maybe date of manufacture?). Looks to be in really good shape though!

 

[zatch]

Here's some in progress pics to keep this updated.

Stripper...

Vinegar Bath (Probably won't matter in the long run, since I will try to refinish the whole head...haven't ever done a vinegar bath)

After a new handle, hand sanding, filing...

I bought an angle grinder with the hopes of using it...however, I bought wheels with the wrong arbor size I haven't had a chance to use it yet...Since I made the trip to my dads shop, I decided to at least sand it down, put new handles on, and see where I could get with files. I need to remember to tape up most of the head before filing, rather than just the eye portion back to the poll...couple of stray filing marks on the cheeks. I also need to get a better handle. The one I had is not the greatest, though the grain alignment is pretty decent compared to most of the handles I saw.

Needless to say, there's a lot of work that needed to be done. I spent plenty of time sanding/filing. I really need to get on this angle grinder thing, I think it could really speed things up. However, I like where they are now - has more of a dull grey look in person, the filing marks are a little harder to see.

That's where they are for now. I'll post some more once I get the rest of the supplies for the grinder and find a good block of time to get it done. After all this so far, I have to admit, after seeing other tutorials and pictures of refinishing axes, reading and seeing is one thing, doing is a whole 'nother thing. Hopefully practice makes perfect, I plan to keep practicing :thumbup:

 

[nickzdon]

Thanks for the update Zatch!