Handle grain

[montess85]

OK guys. I know this has probably been done to death. But how important is the grain alignment? I just received my council tool Hudson Bay axe. I really love it and cant wait to use it. The only problem I have is the handles grain is perpendicular to the axe head. I was wonder just how bad is this. I contacted council and they assure me is it every bit as strong and the more desirable alignment. I'll copy and paste what they told me.

"Good morning Rob. We are sorry you are disappointed in the axe you received. The grain alignment is always a topic of discussion. We have done extensive testing here at our plant and have found that the grain alignment is not a significant contributing factor to handle failure. We realize this goes against some well-known axe aficionados and information that has been passed down. More importantly is protecting the wood from elements by a coating of wax. lacquer or oil to keep the handle from cracking or drying out. If you view some online blogs you will find users who are practical and have used axes of many types they will agree that a natural product such as hickory can be strong and withstand blow after blow no matter about the grain. On the flip side being a natural product, a handle with a perpendicular grain can fail just as easily if not properly cared for. We do offer a premium line of axes that we only use the more desirable grain alignment. The line is our Velvicut line and we do offer the Hudson Bay in the offering. The price point allows the choice grain alignment in all axes. We only use handles with alignment between a 10-2(clock) or about 30 degree grain orientation. Perhaps this line would be more to your liking. I feel confident in telling you that your axe is as safe to use as any other axe you could spend money on. In fact we sell the boys axe to the USFS and they do not specify any grain orientation in the specs, this backs up our findings as well. We sell thousands of axes so we can say with confidence that it is a bargain for the money and will be with you for years to come."

So are they just blowing smoke up my ass or should I return it? What are your thoughts?

 

[Steve Tall]

It's true that the FSS specs for the US Forest Service axes don't specify grain alignment (at least I couldn't find any reference to it), and Council does offer their premium line with the premium handles (at a price). There's at least one online seller who will "hand pick" the grain you want for an extra charge. Some online sellers reportedly will do this for free if you ask them. Otherwise you take your chances when you buy an axe online, instead of looking through the stock at a physical store.

A related thread:
www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1024233-Bummed-about-my-new-Council-boys-FSS-axe

 

[SC T100]

I wouldn't get too hung up on it, especially in a smaller and lighter axe like the hudson bay. My GB SFA (about the same size) doesn't have great grain, and even has some runout. It's hit some hard wood and hasn't even batted an eye. I think you're over thinking, and perhaps expecting too much from, this especially in a "user" grade like the standard CT. Take it out and use it! I seriously doubt you'll run into any problems. And if you are that concerned, buy a hand-selected Velvicut. Just be prepared to pay significantly more.

 

[rjdankert]

Don't know. They say grain orientation doesn't matter, but wonder why they said in the response:

"We do offer a premium line of axes that we only use the more desirable grain alignment."

Their website (describing the "premium line") says:

"Handles for VELVICUT® axes are specially made from American hickory with grain oriented along the strength of the handle. Between ten o’clock and two o’clock…that’s the rule of thumb."

 

[chuxwan]

Hmm, while I agree with them somewhat that it may not really matter if you treat your axe properly, I think rjdankert is right to point out their own inconsistencies. You should call them out.

 

[SC T100]

Because buyers are paying a premium for the Velvicuts, and they have to deliver a higher grade of handle. If someone is very concerned with grain, they can pay the extra for the Velvicut. It costs time and effort (which we all know equals money) to select and fit the best possible handles.

But that doesn't mean you have a bad handle that's going to break the second you walk outside. And what you have is still likely miles ahead in terms of quality compared to what you can pick up in your local big box store. Like I said, I wouldn't worry about it. Go out and use it hard and see.

However, you could always return it and hope they send you one with better grain, which is entirely possible. It's either that, buy a Velvicut, re-handle it yourself, or use it as is and see if it holds up.

 

[SC T100]

Hmm, while I agree with them somewhat that it may not really matter if you treat your axe properly, I think rjdankert is right to point out their own inconsistencies. You should call them out.

I think it would only be inconsistent if he bought a Velvicut and got less than ideal grain. But buying the standard line will mean you have some less-than-premium aspects. That's why CT suggested buying a Velvicut if the buyer is concerend about the grain being more ideal and consistent.

It's sort of like saying I bought this Camry, but it's not as fast or as quality as the Lexus. Well, there's a reason for that. Different lines for different priorities (which equals different price points).

 

[montess85]

Thank you for the responses. I think im gonna just use it and see. I really love the way this axe feels. If I like this enough I might just buy the velvecut.

 

[SC T100]

Thank you for the responses. I think im gonna just use it and see. I really love the way this axe feels. If I like this enough I might just buy the velvecut.

Haha, there you go! That's what axes do...they multiply. I bought a GB, and then I turned around and had about 15 other axes and hatchets of varius styles and sizes within a year or so.

And using it is actually the best test of whether you want to keep using it or not. You may find you don't like the size or feel of something, or what appears to be you case, you find you *really* like it and want more.

 

[BG_Farmer]

Reasonable choice; it won't cause any problem unless there is also excessive runout. It is easy to forget that the handle is a consumable and a lot of rules are more preferences. In the old days, it was apparently more common to sell bare axe heads, and I bet they were only rough ground when new, leaving the user the chore or opportunity of installing the perfect haft and profile... I would actually prefer that approach now, but I'm probably in the minority.

 

[Chignecto Woodsman]

Not as important as other factors. Is the grind good? Is the edge straight/in line with the rest of the head? Does the edge line up with the end of the handle straight or just slightly skewed towards your dominant hand? Is the axe centred to the middle of the edge for accuracy and efficiency?

It'll probably hold up. If you're new to axes you should take it easy anyway and focus on accuracy.

 

[Square_peg]

It's been the consensus of experienced axe users on this forum that lack of run out is more important than perfect grain alignment. Equally important to handle life are not making overstrikes and not getting your axe stuck in the wood. The latter is best controlled by the shape of the bit and cheeks. And remember never to pry out a stuck axe by wrenching on the handle. Instead knock on the poll with a mallet made of softer material than the axe head.

All that said, I'll still look for vertical grain alignment in my axe handles and alignment off by about 20° to 30° for my Pulaski handles.

 

[chuxwan]

I think it would only be inconsistent if he bought a Velvicut and got less than ideal grain. But buying the standard line will mean you have some less-than-premium aspects. That's why CT suggested buying a Velvicut if the buyer is concerend about the grain being more ideal and consistent.

It's sort of like saying I bought this Camry, but it's not as fast or as quality as the Lexus. Well, there's a reason for that. Different lines for different priorities (which equals different price points).

The inconsistency stems from their own language about the handles. Your example would be work if Toyota claimed that their crash tests showed that the Camry was as safe a car as anyone really needed, but then proceeded to sell the equivalent Lexus by claiming that it was a safer car than the Camry because of features that the Camry did not have.
Either way, I think his handle will probably be fine, but I find their differing language interesting anyway.

 

[atavist]

I woukd rate grain orientation in an axe handle as only about as important as the grain orientation in a traditional longbow.... ie. Critical for maximum durability... as already said, in a small camp axe you may never have a failure caused by run-out grain... in principal however most axe handle failure is due to grain run-out..

 

[chuxwan]

Or abuse.

 

[atavist]

Or abuse.

Symantics but I don't consider breakage because of abuse "failure"

 

[montess85]

Well guys....I went out and used the axe today. It works great. Axe handle also didn't break. Lol. But!.!.! Its is now about to fall off. It slid up almost a inch. Now im no expert but I dont think the head is suppose to slide no matter the grain orientation. So I guess I need to re hang the head now or call the place I bought it from. Im a little disappointed but I guess it happens.

 

[atavist]

That's annoying...
A ghetto fabulous way to fix a loose handle that is otherwise sound is to pack vaseline around he bottom.of the head, where the haft enters (to seal it up temporarily) and then pour epoxy into the top of the head. Cut off the excess handle that is sticking up and go on your merry way...
Doesn't look great but won't ever slip again for sure.

 

[cityofthesouth]

So what did you use it for? Also just curious what sort of metal wedge is in these.

 

[montess85]

I used it to cut 2 small trees down at my brother's house. About 4-6 inch diameter. And it has a aluminum wedge. Im probably gonna call council tool to see if there is a warranty on this.