Handle weight ratio

tonyccw

tonyccw

Joined
Sep 2, 2001
Messages
8,276
Originally posted by blade_420
Maybe someone will eventually answer my question:

What is the perfect blade/handle weight ratio.

All I've ever got before is basically, "personal preferance"

But still I wonder.... Is there a perfect relationship? or is there at least a workable ratio to look for?

Hmmmm.... I wonder......:confused: :D :rolleyes: :p
Click to expand...
The perfect handle to weight ratio is "personal preference". It has to do with how much milk one drank, and how much spinish one ate growing up. The tendon strength and flexibility genetically endowed upon them. But most importantly, their forearm circumference. Since each person's attribute of all three are uniquely different, there should not be a perfect ratio for everyone. ;)

However, the perfect set of handles should be a latchless set. Even balance, weight distribution (because one lacks the slots milled into the handle for the latch, and the other lacks the latch), and perfect centrifugation (because it lacks the disruption caused by the additional length the latch adds to one handle). I could explain it to you, but you need to have taken Calc 4 :D :D

(Like I ever used any of that stuff in the last 20 years of my life).
 
Dammit, Dammit!!!!

I need that info!!!

OK, I'll spare your life this time, just long enough to get that info out of you.!!!


so....Post that info, and then the duel is on ....Um.....Sunday at dawn....:mad:
 
Riiiiggggghhhhtttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This coming from a man that belittles my dream for the "perfect tang pin". Like I'll ever share any of my secrets with you.;)

What blade dimensions are we talking about? Tang pins? Handle composition/configuration? Latch?

Define your priorities; is it speed? Balance? Strength?
 
HEY THERE< CALM DOWN....

I have fallen asleep many a night to the PERFECT TANG PIN, or THE PERFECT HANDLE RATIO,

Don't think that I'm be-littling anything, mister!!! <-(just for sarcasim).

I don't care what the composition or blade profile is, I just want to know the " PERFECT " blade-to-handle ratio is....

For speed=balance=strength

The materials used should be used in striving the perfect ratio.


well, more spacificilly,--> balance<--!!
 
Blade, Tony, too much caffeine:D. Ever notice how a latch drop works better with with heavy handles (or does it?)? The ratio may depend on which maneuver one is performing. There undoubtedly is a ratio that works better than another ratio in general. A start would be to compare a 42 to a SS handled bali of similar size, and blade shape.
 
Originally posted by blade_420
HEY THERE< CALM DOWN....
Click to expand...
Darn, there goes the flame war. You're right about something, and I quote:
I'm not trying to be a butt-wipe about this.
It just comes naturally...
Click to expand...
I don't care what the composition or blade profile is, I just want to know the " PERFECT " blade-to-handle ratio is....
Click to expand...
Honestly, I don't know. I'm still looking. For the past 20+ years, I've adapted myself to the bali, not the other way around. Every bali I've ever flip was flawed in some ways. The only thing I'm sure of, is it should be latchless.

The problem isn't just the blade/handle, it's also the person (ergonomics, strength, flexibilty, dexterity, digitation, hand/eye coordination, etc...) Too many variables in play.

Personally, I prefer a 3.75" blade, 3/16" thick, and no more than 3/4" wide at the widest part, and a tang of no longer than 1". Given those dimensions, the blade should weigh in at around .8 to .9 ounces. That makes the handles to be at least 4.75" long. Since my prefence is speed, my handles need to be heavy, and I've found the ones from BM Custom to be just a tad too heavy. Which means the ideal weight is still around 3 ounces each. In this instance it's a weight of 1:3, and a length of 1:1(+tang length).

And the kicker is: the blade doesn't really come into play for the speed or balance of the bali when flipping. It's all a matter of fulcrum and centrifugal forces as the handles swing. The blade just goes along for the ride.

Did I answer the question?
 
I understand, but this is a start. I have a 42 apart, so if I can find an accurate enough scale, we'd have a ball park figure. That assumes you prefer a 42 over a similar size BM with SS handles.
 
Blade 420, you're buying a new Bear with Sunday morning looming on the horizon (I love talk like this):D.
On to h/w ratio; I think I remember Chuck saying that one of his older BMs fights you all the way under manipulation (the 44?). The 45, however, works with you. If I have the correct models (someone please prompt me here), and the handles are the same, (are they?), then where the weight is placed on the blade and/or handle may have as much relevance as h/w ratio. How does the 47 flip compared to the 42?
 
OK, I guess that that's a pretty good rationalle when probing the deeper meanings into handle weight. But there are still some balis out there that I have to think that the maker put no thought into this before making it.

This one for example...:

View


It is almost impossible to flip. Makes me wonder how different the Ericson balis that were just auctioned off flip. One was stainless, and one was aluminum.
I have tested both on my Manila Folders, and the brass swings WAY better than the aluminum.
View


By the way, since you parted with this vital information, I guess I'll spare your life...
Besides, I want to sleep in tomorrow. I have two Halloween parties to go to tonight, and I won't be in the mood to duel at sunrise.
 
One part Absolute Vodka..., one teaspoon Santa Barbara Olive juice..., -shaken but not stirred- :cool:

Just got my two matching Dobruskis....WOW...closest tolerances I've ever seen. A hair off topic -giggle-, but boy these are nice knives!

Back to topic :rolleyes: ....I do think much of the weight to blade relationship does depend on what you are attempting to do manipulation wise..., and I guess we all sort of adapt to models we really like, even when certain moves are more difficult?




"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
Originally posted by blade_420
OK, I guess that that's a pretty good rationalle when probing the deeper meanings into handle weight. But there are still some balis out there that I have to think that the maker put no thought into this before making it.
Click to expand...
There's your first mistake. Just because they can make a bali, doesn't mean they understand how to make a bali. Or understand the physics behind a bali. Even worse, they may not be making the bali's with your perceptions of a bali in mind. And who's to say someone won't find the bali you despise to be of their liking?
It is almost impossible to flip. Makes me wonder how different the Ericson balis that were just auctioned off flip. One was stainless, and one was aluminum.
Click to expand...
Impossible for you and your skill set, but maybe not for someone else. The aluminum one will require more effort as you will have to exert a stronger ratation of the wrist to initialize the centrifugal force necessary to swing the handles around. Less weight equates to less stored kinetic energy against the fulcrum of the handle pin to tang relationship.
I have tested both on my Manila Folders, and the brass swings WAY better than the aluminum.
Click to expand...
Can you explain why? Even better question to you: define "better" in the same vein as you insisted for my analysis of the "ratios". Please.
By the way, since you parted with this vital information, I guess I'll spare your life...
Besides, I want to sleep in tomorrow. I have two Halloween parties to go to tonight, and I won't be in the mood to duel at sunrise.
Click to expand...
And this is your next mistake. You presume to think you would win. Why? You don't know me; my skill set; my comabt experience; my level of determination for self preservation. What makes you think you would have won? You want a piece of me, I'm available to you anytime.

As I re-read most of your past posts, I came to one conclusion. I did not find any evidence that you can quantify much of anything. Everything you've said was either subjective or opinionated. No sense of the definitive that you insisted we provide you. In my books, that makes you a hyprocite. The sad truth is in this instance, with the examples you gave, I see a major flaw in your argumentation. You are assuming that all the handles behave the same, and the only differnce is the handle weight. There's a whole science to the art of friction, and it's causal relationship to the construction of a bali handle. But I guess that would be lesson 2.
 
The Al handles would undeniably be faster, and since the brass is heavier and it has more inertia (and is softer) then the forks of the handles will bend more drastically and faster than the Al.


And the kicker is: the blade doesn't really come into play for the speed or balance of the bali when flipping. It's all a matter of fulcrum and centrifugal forces as the handles swing. The blade just goes along for the ride.
Click to expand...

I have 2 PC 10s, one has the normal 2 handles and a blade (complete with tang and tang end) the other has 2 handles and a tang (the blade broke off just above the kick, there is absolutely no edge to it at all) and I can assure you that the blade makes a big difference in the feel of how a bali flips. If you like I'll get pics of them together, :) and I do carry the bladeless PC 10 :D it is the only legal "balisong" that I own. :D

A knife cannot be a knife without a blade... can it? :confused:
 
Originally posted by BalisongMan
I can assure you that the blade makes a big difference in the feel of how a bali flips
Click to expand...
Yes, you're right. The fact that the handle engages the tang pin, and swing the blade in the corresponding direction, changes the center of gravity of the handle during that portion of the swing. It will affect the balance, since for that part of the swing the force is exerting on a different set of matter (weight/mass of the handle plus the weight/mass of the blade).

Guess what I meant to say is that the ratio of the weight of the handle to the blade is irrelavent, as the initial speed and balance of the handles during manipulation, up to the point it engages the tang pin, is strictly dependent on the amount of force exerted onto the handle that is swinging. The weight of the blade doesn't come into play.

My physics gets a little fuzzy after not using it for some time.
 
Just for general information, the broken PC 10 does not feel real good while flipping, it does need the weight of the blade, especially for aerials, the blade helps keep it spinning straight and not twisting.

I wonder what a BM/PC custom would feel like with the blade broken right at the kick :confused: that would feel horrible (besides the fact that the cost for a broken knife would be too much to handle, no pun intended :eek: ). For some of you that have been around the Bali forum for a while you might remember JohnR7, he used to auction balisongs on eBay with the blades ground down to 2" for it to be legal. I bet those felt awkward as well, especially if it was a Jag, those handles (though crap) have some weight to them.

tonyccw: Here is a very interesting question: How would a bali flip if one of the handles was brass and the other was Ti or Al?
It would seem that it would be fast with the safe handle being brass (assuming that the manipulator held the safe handle) and the bite handle being Ti/Al and fairly slow with the safe handle being Ti/Al and the bite being brass (lets assume just a regular 9" OAL with 4" blade and 5" handled balisong is used, blade material is 440C and the blade style is a weehawk, plain edge, with no sharpened false edge, the pins on the handles are both steel, polished, and it is a latchless balisong). :D

How do you think that would flip?
 
If you guys start over with a well defined, specific problem, you MAY actually be able to solve this. First, Blade_420, I think you need to put more constraints on the problem... there are too many undefined variables. Also, change "perfect" to "optimal", that way you can define optimal. Why don't you state the problem as... <i>What would the optimal weight be for the handles of a bali with the specs of a BM 42 if we want to achieve {speed, weight, strength}</i>. Next assign a cost function for each of the goals {speed, weight, strength}. Once plotted on a graph, you can find all the local optima you want. Of course you could make a cost function for defining "perfect" and use the previously defined functions as variables in that equation and find the global optima that way. Basically, you need to define "perfect" and "optimal" before you can solve the problem. Ok... it's time for this engineer to get his extra "day-light savings" hour of sleep.:o
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top