Handle: what would be your choice?

H

HM

Joined
Dec 11, 1999
Messages
641
Another thread got me started on this.
Steels, shapes, sheaths for 'survival knives' have been discussed many times. However, handle shape and materials that might very well effect the use of the knife have been left aside. To give some start to my argument, I would give examples of potential trouble spots:
-narrow tangs that can not bear the same stress as the blade and if they are left naked can not function: Kabars, Marbles, some Ontarios
-tangs that are not heat treated consistantly with the blade, therefore, bend: Kabars
-handle materials that soak water and rot: leather handles
-materials that soak gasoline and chemicals (DEET): leather, hipalon (spell?) and kraton
-wide tang with holes (to make knife lighter, to store small items, to determine distance) that make it weaker inherently
-tangs that end in screwed-on butt (one otherwise strong knife failed badly on me as the beautiful round bone handle became loose and would have required special tool to retighten it so it revealed the rod tang)
-round shaped handles or ones close to it that might twist in palm or abrade it by rough surface: Chris Reeve knives, Kabars, Ontarios
-non-shock resistant materials: bone and stag handles

So what would be your choice, smart boy?
Well, how about this:
-tang equally strong (thick, closely as wide as blade) and heat treated with blade
-slab handle made of water/flame/chemical/shock-resistant non-slippery slabs (maybe micarta or zytel or impregnated wood
-only small essential holes for rivets and lanyard in tang (no peep-holes and container space; heck, use a sheath pouch as container)
-a construction that one might use even without slabs or can fit quickly with some wood slabs fixed with wire, wet raw skin (native way) or parachute cord
-with emphasized index finger groove (Livesay-like)
-finger groove would transform into an extrusion of the blade that would serve as an integrated hilt (Livesay- and Busse-like)
-tang would extrude at but end and a steel but cap (Kabar-like) might close it
-handle and blade would be in a slight angle to each other for better chopping and cut

Closest to these parameters, I found Livesay's knives.

What would be your choice?

HM



 
All good points. I vote for a Busse Badger Attack, Busse Steel Heart, the new model Busse (can't remember the model name but I saw it at the gun and knife show--bigger than a BA but smaller than a SH, I believe), Jeff Randall's new design, and CRK's Project knives (if you read Cliff Stamp's reviews, he gave a thumbs up to handle comfort after originally assuming it would be uncomfortable). Obviously there are others as well such as TOPs and Livesay's. I hesitate to put the Battle Mistress in there because it is such a big honker. When I think of a "do it all" survival knife, I think of a little smaller knife than the Battle Mistress. The Badger Attack is at the top of my list, not because it is very good at any particular thing but because in a pinch, you can make it do what you need it to do from cleaning a small trout to chopping saplings by using a baton to hammer on it.

Oh yeah, I forgot. The Camillus Magnum Camp is super as well. It's a thinner knife than some of the really tough buggers but my suspicion is that this knife will hold up to some heavy work. Probably not a pryer but most other things I think it would excel. Haven't given mine a workout yet, though. Would love to see Busse come out with an infi knife with a blade as thin as the magnum camp. That would be some knife (and I would also love to see a Busse 1/8" hunter, but that's another story
smile.gif
)

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Hoodoo

Why dost thou whet thy knife so earnestly?

The Merchant of Venice, Act IV. Scene I.

[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 08-18-2000).]
 
Your trouble list is long and much of it has some truth.
How long is your survival situation going to last: a few days; weeks; months or years? If you found yourself in a survival situation and you were lucky enough to have any one of the better examples of survival knives produced today, you really would be pleased with yourself.
Inpregnated and compressed leather washer handles are well tough. Round handled handles, so long as they give grip are very comfortable for most people. Shaped handles that do not suite the person's hand give more problems.
In my opinion in most survival situations there is not much chopping envolved. Most wood you need can be picked off the ground or snapped off the tree. The exception are for cutting some half a dozen straight poles, or in the jungle, were a machete is needed, to clear vegitation to make a path. Try collecting limpets and cockles with a kukurie.
The areas I do really agree with you are: too soft or badly heat treated tangs; fine fragile tangs; poorly threaded end caps; splitable, chipable slabs; large fixing holes in tangs giving stress points. My greatest hate are screw fixings as they do come loose, and not only difficult to tighten without the right tool but if lost are irreplaceable. I like a handle to be fixable with a cord rap.
Most of this is accademic as the better makers have already addressed these problems. Its the cheaper options that will break your heart. Saying that, there have been some classic examples of design incompetence from some manufacturers who should know better. The Wilkinson Sword survival knife springs to mind.
My CR Project is the biz, but I would be more than happy with any number of the better made knives out there.

My greatest worry is not having something to boil water in.
 
Hoodoo, those are all great knives.
Few questions: What are the handle materials of the old and new Busses? Which one do you have?
What are the handle materials of the Becker knives? Are the slabs fixed with rivets or knuts and bolts on these Beckers?

I think that all the knives that you mentioned represent a new generation of 'survival knives'. In my post, I tried to question the suitability of some of the old knife standards. Some are not even inexpensive (Marbles for example).
All opinions are appreciated,

HM
 
HM,

The Busses I've listed all have micarta handles. I have a Battle Mistress, a Badger Attack, and a Mean Street. The BM and the MS have the scales attached by tubes that pass through the tang. My BM and MS are made with infi steel, the BA is A2. The BA scales are bolted. Busse, as far as I know, has discontinued the BA.

For the Camillus line, I have the Companion and the Magnum Camp. The scales on these are bolted and I believe, removable. The Busse scales are not easily removed. I think they are glued on with some kind of superglue.

Here is an interesting thread discussing the Becker line: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum21/HTML/000321.html

Here is a thread discussing the Becker handles: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum21/HTML/000332.html

And here's a scan of a companion that is disassembled: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum21/HTML/000335.html

I love the feel of the handles on the Becker line. Very comfy. In my opinion, the Becker line is some of the best bargains in the knife industry right now. And as far as I can see, the quality is very high.

I have no experience with the CRK Project line but they are definitely on my want list.

Although we talk a lot about chopping with knives, when it comes to chopping, I prefer a hatchet. Of the knives I've listed, probably only the Battle Mistress comes close to the chopping ability of a good hatchet. I have an old hudson bay style Norlund hatchet with a relatively tiny head that chops circles around my big knives (although I haven't compared it to the BM yet). But one of the advantages of the big knife for chopping is that because of the long blade, you will need less accuracy when you chop and therefore can chop more quickly with more abandon. And the big knife is more versatile as well. But a small hatchet is very lightweight and as long as you have other knives to do other work such as butchering and food prep, it makes a good addition to your survival battery of cutting tools. Hatchets have gotten a bad rep lately because good hatchets are hard to find. One of the best out there is the Gransfors Bruks. These hatches are outstanding cutlery.

I'm sure others will sing the praises of a khukri but I have no experience with these.

If I was choosing a hunting knife, I think the Marbles are great, but I like the bomb proof nature of the full, open tang. Maybe one of the toughest hunting knives out there would be something from Bob Dozier. I dunno because I've never had one. It's another knife on my list, though.

------------------
Hoodoo

Why dost thou whet thy knife so earnestly?

The Merchant of Venice, Act IV. Scene I.

[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 08-19-2000).]
 
I'd take one of John Greco's "La Duena"'s with micarta. Great shaped knife, awesome finish and great micarta slabs. If you don't like micarta get a good hard wood, like Cocobolo or Desert Ironwood.

Vince

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Stay sharp and be Safe!
------- ---- ---------
That which does not kill us only makes us stronger.
F.W. Nietzche
 
Hoodoo, thanks for the excellent links and the additional information. You certainly own many of the best survival knives of today's market. The Becker line seems to be a strong contender in a more affordable price range. Its functionality, simplicity and strength makes it an outstanding example what I would expect from a 'survival knife'.
Vince, could you give us a link to the Greco knives? Thanks...
I believe that it is time now to use the new materials and the technical advances to build new knives that might replace such classics as the Kabars.

HM
 
HM:

I believe www.BladeArt.com has the most extensive collection of Greco knives at the moment. "La Duena" (pronounced "La Duenya")is one of Greco's newest designs and will be tested in the jungles South America later this year.

Vince

------------------
Stay sharp and be Safe!
------- ---- ---------
That which does not kill us only makes us stronger.
F.W. Nietzche
 
>Saying that, there have been some classic >examples of design incompetence from some >manufacturers who should know better. The >Wilkinson Sword survival knife springs to >mind.
>My CR Project is the biz, but I would be >more than happy with any number of the >better made knives out there.

Spooky: about 14 years ago I was looking at buying a knife prior to going on a Survival Course run by Lofty Wiseman. I'd seen Lofty using a Wilkinson Sword knife on a TV programme so wrote to him asking his opinion. He replied that it was a waste of money and that the one he'd used broke ! I then went on to buy a CR Survival Mk4.

Anyone got first hand experience of the WS knife ? I presume it can break at the tang due to the cut out for the Survival kit.

Mark

 
Vince, thanks for the link. The Greco knives, as you suggested, seem to be built based on the fundamentals that make a knife more of a 'survival knife'. (I still find the term a bit dubious after all those Rambo influence.) They look solid and well made. Obviously, some have a slight or visible 'tactical' influence (...another dubious trendy word) and that is how I probably heard his name first. We have to definitely keep an eye on his knives. The "La Duena" looks like a good chopper and general big knife. I am curious how it will perform in the jungle. I felt that the handle seems to be a bit narrower than what I would instinctly look for but it might be just a prejudice.
Markwood, it is good to have you here at the Forum, especially with experience from the Wiseman 'School'. The WS has not got popularity here in the US, based on the little I heard about it. I saw it in Tactical Knives but did not like its complexity. If it has a weakened tang it is definitely a problem.
Gotta go but one more thing:
screw-fixed scales might have an additional advantage that the knife can be cleaned and rust-protected bellow, can be improvised into a spearhead, and can be repared more easily if only the scale is broken.

Best,

HM

a magyar huszar

 
I like the Micarta handles done by www.newt.livesay.com , I have several of his knives, all of which have a very well designed and executed micarta handle. The Air assault in particular is very ergonomic,
it feels very natural and secure in you hand even when when.
Be safe,
Chad

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"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
"Those who hold the thin blue line keep order, and insure that anarchy and chaos will not prevail."
 
markwood,
I was given one to test for Combat & Survival Magazine. There was nothing that I could say that I liked about it so I gave it back.
I'm a big fan of CRK's, how well did you get on with yours?
 
Originally posted by GREENJACKET:
markwood,
I was given one to test for Combat & Survival Magazine. There was nothing that I could say that I liked about it so I gave it back.
I'm a big fan of CRK's, how well did you get on with yours?
Click to expand...

I've got the first 4 volumes of Combat and Survival and they raved about the Wilkinson Sword Knife ! They must have found someone else to review it ! Btw, I checked with the people at Ray Mear's school and he did design the knife in the first place (hopefully not the tang which seems to be the big fault).

I've had little opportunity to give my CR knife any serious use. I took it on a survival course but there was little emphasis on heavy chopping so I really didn't use it much. I can say that it is still razor sharp today and looks as good as new despite being largely ignored for over 13 years. I also went on to get a custom knife from Alan Wood in the UK which I'm very pleased with but again haven't put to use. I'm just getting back into these things and am looking at going on another course to actually put the knives through their paces.

Cheers

Mark
 
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