Handle with throat build process, please explain

H

Heli00

Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Messages
340
Hi,

I know this is a more advanced topic, but I would really appreciate if someone could help.

I’m working on a build here, https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/help-me-with-this-knife-design-and-build-take-2.1641810/ and I could use some help.

I thought this would call for a stand alone topic/thread.

Could someone please describe the process of making a handle that contains a throat and where the handle is proud of the throat. Kind of like the pic below. Please note that the handle in the pic is not shown as being proud of the throat, just inline, so just ignore that.

Throat.png


I’d like to understand the steps involved, as in, first glue in the guard, then construct the throat by itself, then glue in the throat or perhaps not. Maybe the handle is shaped before being attached to the knife, maybe alignment pins are used, and how, etc, etc. The world is already starting to spin... :-).

Thanks in advance,
Constantin
 
If the part you are describing as a throat is #2, it's generally called a "ferrule." These are usually hollow and are designed to bolster the strength of the blade/handle joint. Most are attached to the guard and the handle is fitted inside them.
I don't suggest gluing either the guard or the ferrule. I would hard solder the ferrule to the guard, and soft solder the guard to the blade.
 
Yes, it's #2. But I think I'm referring to something else, the handle is not going inside it. This part stands between the guard and the handle and has a hole, just like the guard and handle around the hidden tang.
I guess it is more for looks, maybe to help with the balance, not sure what other purpose it serves, maybe just a transition from the guard. Maybe someone else knows the purpose behind it.

Here is an example from the great "Bruce Bump". Not that I'm going to attempt something similar, just a reference.

https://www.brucebumpknives.com/knives/#/new-gallery/

Thanks,
Constantin
 
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First make nr2. Then make the tang hole.
After that drill a hole left and right of the tang hole.
Make nr3 oversize, orient nr2 where you want it, drill trough the two small holes made before.(in to nr3)
Do the same with nr1 but don't drill trough it, only in to it.
Shape 1 as desired.
Put pins trough nr2 in to nr1 and nr3 aligning thenm. Now put a few layers of masking tape on nr 2 and sand nr3 to the masking tape.
Take everything apart, round the edge of nr3, finish everything to you desired gritsize, then epoxy everyting without the need to finish after assembly
 
Hengelo_77 said:
First make nr2. Then make the tang hole.
After that drill a hole left and right of the tang hole.
Make nr3 oversize, orient nr2 where you want it, drill trough the two small holes made before.(in to nr3)
Do the same with nr1 but don't drill trough it, only in to it.
Shape 1 as desired.
Put pins trough nr2 in to nr1 and nr3 aligning thenm. Now put a few layers of masking tape on nr 2 and sand nr3 to the masking tape.
Take everything apart, round the edge of nr3, finish everything to you desired gritsize, then epoxy everyting without the need to finish after assembly
Click to expand...

Hengelo_77 Hengelo_77 , WOW, superb explanation!!! That's exactly the detail I was looking for.

So it looks like all the shaping and alignment is done off the knife. This should allow for great control finishing each part of the 1-2-3 assembly and without chances of screwing up the blade while shaping the individual parts, genial!

Thanks so much,
Constantin
 
It is called a bolster if it is solid and the handle butts up against it, and a ferrule if it is hollow and the handle fits inside it, and a spacer if it is a contrasting piece glued/attached on the end of the handle. Ferrules and spacers are sometimes referred to as collars. I don't recall it being called a throat ( which is the term for the opening in the sheath)
The ferrule assembly is best, as it guarantees a perfect fit.

The process is:
1) Make the blade with a hidden tang. Have the shoulders at the ricasso with small radius to the spine, as 90° angles can cause a blade failure. HT and completely finish the blade except sharpening.
2 Make the guard and slot it so it fits flat against the shoulders at the ricasso. The back side needs to be flat where the ferrule will seat. For a beginner, brass or nickel silver is best.
3) Make the ferrule. It can be a simple flattened oval of brass, nickel silver, or copper. If you have the skills, you can make it from a solid block of metal, or roll and weld sheet stock. Check the seating against the guard. You will fine tune it in a few steps.
4) Drill the tang hole and rough shape the handle. Take it to about 90% shaped, leaving a bit of extra at the front part. Make a tenon on the front, shaping slowly until it fits in the ferrule. The handle sides should stick out past the ferrule, but seat perfectly against it along the tenon. A snug fit is all that is needed. A little wiggle is OK. The handle should go at least half way into the ferrule, but not more than 75% in. You want a little room at the guard end.
5) Put the ferrule on the handle and test fit it with the guard on the blade. Make adjustments to assure all seats right.
6) This step is more advanced, but more professional. If this isn't in your skill set yet, skip it. The end result will be just as pretty.
With everything tightly in place, scribe the back of the guard to show the exact position of the ferrule. Take the handle apart and silver solder ( hard solder) the ferrule on the guard. It is best to apply the silver solder from the inside of the ferrule and heat from the other side of the guard and ferrule. Clean up the joint and sand/polish the guard and ferrule.
If skipping this step, just make sure the ferrule seats snug on the guard.
7) Soft solder ( silver bearing low temp solder) the guard (or guard/ferrule assembly if hard soldered together) to the blade. Neutralize well and clean up. Finish any sanding and polishing on the blade/guard/ferrule. Tape the blade up tp prevent scratches.
8) Check the handle fit in the ferrule. Make any adjustments needed to get it to seat perfect. Taking the time here will give a professional looking result. At this point, the handle is still unfinished and a bit oversize. If the handle will have a butt plate, you can make it and attach it now. File it down so it is even with the handle. It will be fine trimmed in the final handle sanding/shaping. Mark where you want the pin, remove the handle, and drill the pin hole in the handle. Put the knife back together and seat everything snug, then mark where the pin will go through the tang by running the drill bit down the hole so it makes a mark on the tang you can see when you pull the blade out. Go to the drill press and drill the pin hole in the tang a bit larger than the pin stock ( about 50% oversize). A carbide bit will likely be needed.
9) Once everything fits perfectly, put slow cure epoxy ( 24 hour cure is best) in the tang hole and on the end of the tang where it will go in the ferrule. Slip it on the tang and seat it snug. If you didn't hard solder the ferrule on the guard, check that there is no twist to the alignment with the guard. Clamp the knife in a glue-up clamp ( a jig that is long and holds the knife by the point and butt , with gentle pressure pressing the guard and handle together. Everyone needs to make one of these from two 18" long pieces of 1/4" thread-all, four wing nuts and washers, and two 1X2X4" pieces of pine. Drill 17/64" holes through each piece of wood, 1" from each end. Slip the wood on the threaded rod and put the wing nuts on. You can now put the knife tip in the middle of one wooden piece and the butt against the other. Snug the wing nuts down a bit and move the butt as needed to clamp the handle down straight. Once all is pretty straight and the wing nuts are snug, slip the pin through the handle. I like to clamp the lower piece of wood in my vise and have the knife sticking straight up. This allows checking the alignment from a distance to assure all is straight. After checking alignment several times from all angles, wipe off excess epoxy with a paper towel wet with denatured alcohol. Let sit a while, checking the glue pot. When the glue in the pot starts to set up and gel. Make one last check for alignment, wipe off any drips/squeeze out with alcohol … and let sit undisturbed for 24 hours.
10) Remove from the clamps. Clip/saw off the excess pin stock. Clean up any missed drips with a paper towel wet with acetone.
11) Finish sanding/shaping the handle until the shape is right. Sand is down flush with the ferrule and butt cap. Remember to slightly chamfer the edge of the butt cap so it is not sharp. Finish by sanding to at least 800 grit, then polish/buff, apply a finish, etc. ( depending on your wood and preferences)
 
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Heli00 said:
Hi,

I know this is a more advanced topic, but I would really appreciate if someone could help.

I’m working on a build here, https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/help-me-with-this-knife-design-and-build-take-2.1641810/ and I could use some help.

I thought this would call for a stand alone topic/thread.

Could someone please describe the process of making a handle that contains a throat and where the handle is proud of the throat. Kind of like the pic below. Please note that the handle in the pic is not shown as being proud of the throat, just inline, so just ignore that.

Throat.png


I’d like to understand the steps involved, as in, first glue in the guard, then construct the throat by itself, then glue in the throat or perhaps not. Maybe the handle is shaped before being attached to the knife, maybe alignment pins are used, and how, etc, etc. The world is already starting to spin... :).

Thanks in advance,
Constantin
Click to expand...

I would not say this is advanced at all. This is a rather basic handle construction. It’s just 2 pieces instead of one. And it’s not called a throat, where did you hear that? If it was a Japanese knife then it would be called a kakumaki “collar”. But Normaly I refer to it as a spacer if it’s just a run of the mill hidden tang. Just fit it like you fit any hidden tang knife. When I do it I pin it to the handle with locating pins. This keeps its placement and location consistent so you can finish the handle and spacer separately. Here are a few exzamples of “spacers” I have done.

Antler and waterbuffalo horn with copper.
Photo%20Feb%2015%2C%201%2044%2050%20PM.jpg


For this blade
Photo%20Feb%2016%2C%2012%2037%2035%20AM.jpg


Photo%20Feb%2016%2C%2012%2042%2002%20AM.jpg


Here you can see the pin holes and pins.
Photo%20Feb%2009%2C%2014%2027%2038.jpg


This is another one I did with redwood Burl and walrus ivory and copper.
Photo%20Dec%2021%2C%201%2033%2029%20AM.jpg


You just file out the slot to fit the tang. Helps to take measurements and mark it out.
Photo%20Jun%2004%2C%2014%2054%2052.jpg


And this is also a seax but the “spacer” is the guard. But seax don’t have guards so take it for what’s its worth.
Photo%20Mar%2020%2C%2011%2019%2041%20PM.jpg


Here you can see how the pins are set up
Photo%20Mar%2011%2C%2010%2029%2029%20PM.jpg


When done properly it will create a seamless transition.
Photo%20Mar%2020%2C%2011%2017%2049%20PM.jpg


Hope this helps
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith , you never disappoint my friend, thanks so much!!! :)

This is crazy how much you are all teaching me!

Now I also understand the difference between a ferrule and a bolster.
Bill DeShivs Bill DeShivs , sorry, I didn't understand you because of my lack of knowledge on the subject, now it makes sense, thank you.

Did I mention this is CRAZY good stuff?

Thanks again everyone,
Constantin
 
JTknives JTknives , AWSOME, thank you, great looking blades you got there!
I really appreciate all the pics, like the saying, "a picture's worth a thousand words".

I read the term of "throat" on J. Neilson web site, this is how he is referring to this particular part of the handle, mind you not all the time.
If you look at the "The Monster" Bowie (full Damascus version) knife it is referred to as just the "throat", but other times he uses "throat spacer". Here is the link: http://www.mountainhollow.net/knife-bowie.php

Thanks again,
Constantin
 
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Many of use would call that a ferrule, but it may technically be a spacer if it handle does not fit inside of the ferrule piece.
 
Thanks again for all your help, great education.

I plan on using the spacer/bolster approach with alignment pins, it’s exactly what would work for me.

A ferrule would be alot harder for me to make by hand, maybe if I had a milling machine, but I don’t.

Constantin
 
I think of a bolster as somthing that’s separated by a tang. Like on a folding knife that has bolsters up around the pivot area.
 
JTknives said:
I think of a bolster as somthing that’s separated by a tang. Like on a folding knife that has bolsters up around the pivot area.
Click to expand...

I thought exactly the same. i thought bolsters are always in pairs, on each side of the handle. What I was referring to is like you said, a spacer with a hole for the hiden tang to go through.
 
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