Handmade vs custom made knives

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3nails

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Mar 7, 2002
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About a month ago I ordered what is to me my first custom made knife. It is a Bob Dozier K-4 straight hunter. I have a 5 month wait and when the time comes Bob will be making "my knife" just for me. It is his design with the materials that he chooses to use. I could have gotten different handle material or had the handle changed or any number of personal touches but I like it as it is. It seems to be the perfect knife at the right price for me to own and use.

My question is: am I getting a custom made knife or a hand made knife?

To me it is custom made because when he makes it he will be making "my knife" by hand just for me.

The reason I asked is because I read a post somewhere with a discusion that knives like these were handmade and not custom made.

Thanks for your help and replies while I wait for my custom made knife.:)


Dean
 
Your question illustrates how silly and meaningless the distinction can often be. But, if one HAS to draw a line, i guess where it is drawn is that your knife is only a custom if you 1) Gave him specific instructions on its composition, or 2) The finished knife has a combination of features that is different at least in some way from the other knives he has made. And yet, it still FEELS like your knife is a custom for the reason you stated. Personally, i always feel these discussions are a little silly, the knife is what it is, who really cares whether its a "custom" or "handmade", meaningless semantics to me.
 
Yes, this doesn't really need to be hashed, I think it's a pointless distinction. Here's another example - suppose I have maker A make a knife that I came up with and drew and marked down to the last detail and he gave me exactly that. Why then it'd be a custom knife, right? But what if I then sell it to someone else - that person didn't design it.. so it must be handmade. ?? Silly distinctions.

Whatever the knife is, I'm sure you are going to enjoy it just the same! :)
 
Thanks for the replies guys. I didn't mean to open up a bad topic. I would do a search but I can't since I'm only a basic member. I'm really glad to be getting a Dozier knife and to me it's a custom no matter what anyone says. I just thought someone may have a definitive answer for possible future purchases. When I communicate with Mr. Dozier I'll thank him for my custom made knife and use it with pride.;)


Thanks Dean
 
I don't think it's that silly. Words have meaning. If someone chooses to use them interchangeably, that's up to them.

Custom made, to me, is when you state exactly what you want. It could a a variation on an exsiting model, or something you've dreamed up completely.

Hand made applies to all knives made by hand. A handmade knife can be a standard model that a maker has already designed, or it can be a custom knife according to customer needs.
 
I agree. You certainly have a "hand made knife", but it was made "for you" only because (and I'm supposing this is so in this case), and in the sense that Bob only makes knives for which he has existing orders (I don't think this is always so for Bob D. though). At the same time, because it is simply one of his standard models (and don't get me wrong, my Dozier is my most used knife), it is <b>not</b> strictly a "custom knife."
 
I find this interesting. To me a hand made is just that, hand made. A custom has something unique, but could be made in a production manner.
So you could have production and hand made customs.
I think Jerry Busse clears this up best with: standard models, variants and customs. Just my $.02 .
 
In my opinion this is a custom knife as far as the Knifemakers Guild is concerned, this would be a custom knife by their definition if the major work was done by the maker and if it was not done without the assistance of automated or computer controlled machines.

I tend to go along with the definition of a custom knife as set out by the Knifemakers Guild. I do not believe that a knife must be custom as strickly defined by Webster.


Edited to make what I was trying to say easier to follow.
 
There you are Keith. I was hoping you would respond to this. You have an Ed Fowler Pronghorn which I would concider without question a custom. Mr Fowler will adjust the length of the handle or the blade or adjust it any way you want I'm sure. But, when form and function come together in a handmade knife, through years of trial and error,to acheive a perfect cutting instrument, made by the makers own hands, surely this is a custom. Just my thoughts as a greenhorn.


Once again Thanks for your thoughts...
Dean
 
As I have stated, in my opinion what you have is a custom made knife.

The Pronghorn is an interesting example. To me this is without a doubt a custom knife, but let's take a closer look. The Pronghorn is a set model. It is available only with sheephorn handle, brass guard, 52100 steel and a standard sheath. You can order the blade in different lengths if you want and you can order a left or right hand version, but that is about it. Many would not consider this to be custom at all. I certainly do. The way this knife is made is my definition of a custom knife and even if no one else agreed with this definition, it wouldn't matter to me.
 
I know Chris Reeve knives arent customs, though some call them semi-customs for whatever reason, but heres my question. CR makes a line of Sebenzas, called their "Unique" line, each with a unique machined/engraved graphic in the handle. Since 1) There is in theory no other Sebenza like it, and 2) Since there is only one, it was made for one person only, the ultimate owner, is this a custom knife?

What about the wood inlay Sebenzas? Since each pattern of inlay is unique, and thus there is no other knife exactly like it, is it now a custom? I think this one stretches it a bit, but the unique graphic argument holds together a little better, what do you think?
 
this is a topic that will plague the custom knife community for a long time

chris reeve knives are very nice but they are made by a team of workers utilizing high tech machining... some are much more unique then "true customs" but they are still "factory knives"

i am a fan of handmade knives ... i admire the skill it takes to make them. not everyone does and that is ok.

many of the well known makers here have parts made for them elsewhere (and i am not talking about the screws and pins ... :rolleyes: ), have apprentices and helpers assist them actually make the knives, and utilize mechanized processes to build multiple copies of the same part automatically.

sounds pretty production doesn't it??

if you like the knife and it represents good value to you ... you should buy it no matter how it is made.

there are many fine "customs" that are made utilizing "production" methods. if you simply want a great knife you might buy such a knife but if you value hand craftsmanship you will probably shy away from that same piece. on the other hand there are some makers who use computer controlled equipment to produce very precise pieces ... sometimes as one-off pieces... not production at all.

there are many fascinating rationalizations provided here defending "production" methods in "custom" knives ... the degree of rationalization is usally proportional to the financial interest one has in the particular piece or pieces (usually varies from 1-25 :p ) .

i like the idea behind the guild guidelines but they do not seem to visibly enforce it and there are too many people passing off "semi-custom/production" pieces as true customs.
 
In a free country, people can call their knives whatever they want. To me, if it's made by hand, it's hand made. Is that a fair statement?
 
Define handmade Boink. Your are right that words have meaning. But they do not always mean the same thing to all people. So go ahead, define handmade for us. Think about it for a while. It is not that easy.

If a maker uses a power tool (eg a grinder), is it still handmade? If the maker buys his screws from a factory, can it still be handmade? If the custom design is the makers own design, can he be considered his own customer?

If you want to play the Webster Dictionary game, you must acknowledge that the meaning of words is not absolute. the dictionary customarily provides several definitions for words. Any word can have multiple meanings, depending on its customary useage. These meanings do not even have to be similar.

The Guild definition of a custom knife is not about knives being handmade, or even being a unique design. It is trying to define knives made primarily by one person for another person. The maker has to grind his own blades and assemble the knife alone.

A production knife is something produced by the work of more than one person. So no matter how unique the design of Chris Reeve Knives knife is, they are Not custom knives because Chris does not make the knives himself. He has Lots of folks working for him. A custom knife is not a factory knife. You can order a Randall knife with your choice of handle materials, but that does not make them custom knives from the standpoint of the Guild. If it did, then all the folks involved in making a CRK knife are custom knife makers. No? At Randall knives, some folks do the forging, others grinding, others handle fitting, etc. Yet these folks are not considered custom knife makers by the Knifemakers Guild. They are employees in a factory that makes a Production knives, even when the customer custom orders his choice of handle materials.

The dictionary does not customarily lead one to understanding. You need context, intent, purpose, dialect, tone, etc.

The dictionary definition of the word custom does Not describe the way the word is customarily used by the custom knife community.

Paracelsus, noting that an ice cream cone is often served in a cylindrical, rather than conical container. Words are frequently ambiguous and oxymorons are surround us.
 
Take Darrel, for instance. Take JW Smith. Do they not make knives by hand? If they provide me with a standard design, to me, it's a hand made knife. If I tell them exactly what I want them to make for me, by hand, it's a custom. If I say to them, take one of your standard designs and make me a variation of my choice, that's a semi-custom. Nevertheless, they are all hand made - that is, made by the hand of Darrel Ralph or JW Smith. And it doesn't matter if they chewed the steel to shape or used machine tools.

I don't think it gets any simpler than that. No trip to the dictionary is needed.
 
I'm already sorry I replied to another 'what's a custom knife' thread. You are correct in the narrow sense. However, as I have already pointed out, in the custom knife community, it is customary to call any knife made by one person a custom knife. The maker can be his own customer. If he makes a knife according to his own whim, and does not repeat the design, then it is a custom knife, even if he sells it from his table to a customer who specifies nothing but the method of payment. You may not agree with this word useage, but that's the way it is in this forum, in the Knifemakers Guild, and the ABS.

I do agree that there is some distinction to be made between a one-of-a-kind knife and a standard pattern. But the words handmade and custom are not adequate in themselves. If I design the blade, select materials, and have Darrel make me the knife, then certainly that is a custom knife. However, if I call Randall Company (who make knives by hand) and ask for a specific handle material, is that custom handmade knife in the same category as my custom knife from Darrel? I think not.

There is no single word to describe a custom or handmade knife that is completely satisfactory. You are free to use the word custom in the narrow sense of course. I am simply trying to point out how the word is used in the knifemaking community. As pointed out early in this thread, this topic has been done before over and over again.

The key element in my mind is the idea that the knife is primarily made by one person for another (or the same) person, not a knife made by more than two hands. Lots of folks try to use the word custom in in strictest sense, and then equate a 'custom' knife made in a factory (by hand) with knives made by a fine custom maker like Ralph or Smith. That is the kind of equivocation I am against. Similarly, some folks think having someone engrave a Buck knife makes it a custom. That may work for some folks, but I would still call it a production knife with custom embellishment.

You were right, words have meaning. They just don't always mean the same thing to all people. And sometimes you need more than one or two words (or posts) to adequately define what you are trying to say. Let's leave it at that. OK?

Paracelsus
 
Megalobyte (and others) hit the nail on the head. If you like what you're getting, it's the same as if you chose the components specifically. And besides, a rose by any other name...
 
Dean, as far as any knife organization that has guidelines for what they consider to be a custom knife would be concerned, the knife you have would definitely be regarded as a custom. These are the guidlelines that dealers, purveyors and collectors go by for the most part. I will admit though that many knives that have a great deal of their construction done by computer controlled milling machines are being sold as custom knives. These knives would not be accepted as custom under the guidelines as set forth by these organizations, but they do seem to be regarded as such by many. That does not take away one little thing from the fact that your Dozier would be considered a custom knife.

The opinions of those that disagree with the definition of a custom knife as set forth by these organizations are just that, opinions. They hold no more importance than any other opinions. You think your knife is a custom knife and you are right, it is a custom knife.
 
When I was kid during the 60s and 70s I remember that we only had two kinds of knives. Knives were either dull, or sharp, and that was about it. I have since moved on and started to label knives as "working", or "upscale", in finish. The guild definition is intended to help us better understand the qualifications and versatility, of their members and says nothing about the quality of the knives they produce. Virtually all of the qualitatively best edge tools ever produced in any catagory have been produced by teams of skilled craftsmen working in unison.

Look at the knives and swords of the nobility, the royal swords of the Middle East, the Piha Kaettas produced for the Ceylon kings, the best of the Japanese swords, even the very best of the current "custom" knives; most are produced by a collaboration of talent. One guy would produce the blade, and others would often finish it, engrave it, sheath it, attach a handle, carve a handle, add silver and other fine metals, add gems stones, add leather frogs and carry rigs, build presentation boxes, etc. What is so hard about recognizing that there can be multiple art forms encapsulated within a single knife? Why does it have to be the work of a single individual?

Production techniques are just a means to an end. While most produce inexpensive knives for the masses, we need to recognize that the very best are also made this way. "Custom" means one of a kind, and it says nothing about quality. Theater knives made by troops and amateurs are usually crude, and yet virtually each and every one of them is a solely authored custom knife.

we are trying to imply quality but we are using the wrong word to convey that.

n2s
 
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