Hard openings

kamagong

kamagong

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2001
Messages
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Can hard openings (flicking, snapping open) and their practice on a tactical folder be justified as reasonable use? After all tactical folders are designed to be able to withstand high stresses right? The reason why I ask is that flicking or snapping open a knife is often the fastest way to deploy it, at least for those who don't spend a lot of time practicing their deployment. If a knife can't withstand hard openings how can it withstand the other types of stresses that it may be subjected to if it is ever used in a defensive manner?
 
kamagong:

I suggest you buy one and find out for yourself.

There are lots of folks here who might recommend exactly which model to get.

Frankly, I would buy a good auto if I needed something to open that fast and still hold up. Better yet, a fixed blade. (They don't break too often from "flicking.")
 
The problem with autos and fixed blades is legality. I can carry folders no problem, but carrying a fixed blade is a big no-no in the office. Carrying an auto is just plain illegal.
 
I agree with Tom. A fixed blade will stand up to abuse far better than any folder. Some production companies discourage users from flicking their knives open as it causes stress and premature wear on the stop pin and lock.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kamagong:
The problem with autos and fixed blades is legality. I can carry folders no problem, but carrying a fixed blade is a big no-no in the office. Carrying an auto is just plain illegal.</font>
Click to expand...

What blade length are you looking at? There are some small fixed blades you can carry in your pocket. There are also a good number of defensive folders out there. If you dig Emerson Knives, check out the "wave" feature on some of their folders.



[This message has been edited by el cid (edited 05-16-2001).]
 
Any fixed blade is a no-no where I live and work. I can carry them openly, but that'll scare the sheeple too much. The way around that is to carry a folder. No problem there as I can carry any size folder I want, including the infamous Sifu
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this question comes up a lot. try seaching for "flicking". Inertial openings can be rough on your knife if you do them often and with a large amount of force. Why not just use a little flick in combination with the thumb stud or whatever opening device is on your knife. Works pretty much just as fast, not as hard on your knife, and lets you keep a much better grip on the knife, especially in a defense situation where fine motor skills might not be at their peak.
--Josh
 
Hmm. REKAT folders sound good, as are Benchmades with the Axis locks. In my opinion, the LAWKS feature on some of CRKT's knives are a good safety feature for defensive folders.
 
Josh makes an excellent suggestion about doing a search on "flicking" There is a lot of discussion on file. Let me ask a hypothetical question. Would you buy a brand new SUV, take it home and start slamming the doors open and shut repeatedly for an extended period? After all, in an accident or attempted carjacking, the ability to get them open or closed could be important, right? It is an off road vehicle, after all.
The answer is that it is important and can be done , just not as a matter of habit. Things will start bending, latches will be sprung, etc if it is overdone.
It is the same with flicking a knife. It can be done occaisionally, and certainly in a panic situation. To do so repeatedly will potentially damage the pivot, flatten the stop pin and generally loosen the whole knife up to dangerous levels. When you need it in a panic, you may not be able to rely on the locking mechanism. Do it just enough to be confident with that particular knife. If you want to practice a lot, use a trashed knife that you have no use for.
It is the first rule of knife etequette that you ASK someone if it is okay to flick their knife, and actually wait for the answer
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I hope this is helpful.
David

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AKTI# A000150
NC Custom Knifemakers Guild member
NC Knife Knuts member

[This message has been edited by davidb415 (edited 05-16-2001).]
 
Thank you, David!

I apologize if my previous post seemed a bit hasty. I would like to expand on why continually opening a knife by hard flicking might damage it:

Let's look at this from a physics/metalurgical/mechanical engineering perspective:

1. It is well known that a chain always breaks at its weakest link. With many knives, the blade is the hardest part. (This is especially true of liner-locks, which many times use spring temper stainless steel or titanium locks.)

OK: Pins, stops, and locks could be made of similar materials of similar hardness, depending on the design. But, if they are secured by weaker materials (like zytel, G-10, etc.) they still could shift enough to ruin any chance of precise lock-up.

2. Look at the blade. Does anybody make a knife that never needs sharpening? Sure, blade material is hard - but most knives on the market need sharpening at some time.

3. Most folder blades are made of one material and are not differentially heat treated. This means that any area of the blade has the same hardness as the edge.

4. If the edge of a blade can wear, other areas on the blade can wear.

5. You can compensate for wear by making parts thicker so the contact areas wear less. Therefore, one could speculate that frame locks with thick blades resist wear better than liner-locks with relatively thin locks and thin blades.

6. However, the inertia exerted on a large (heavy) blade - via the "flipping" action - can increase the chance of premature wear due to the increased force exerted on the parts in contact. (ie: You can drive a nail farther faster with a bigger hammer.)

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David has made an excellent point in that "flipping" a folding knife in public can get you in big trouble. (Please also read the thread concerning CRKT's issue with U.S. customs regarding "gravity knives.")

Realizing that a lot of the development of "tactical" folders continues to revolve around the lock security, I know of no maker or manufacturer who currently guarantees their folding knives will hold up to continual, hard "flicking".

With these things in mind, you need to determine how important it is for you to be able to open a knife rapidly and weigh the consequences of it wearing out faster than if opened normally.

(I believe the "social" consequences have been addressed adequately in this and the referenced threads.
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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives


www.andersoncustomknives.com

[This message has been edited by Tom Anderson (edited 05-16-2001).]
 
I have solved your problem.

Buy a balisong (not a cheapy, preferrably a Beanchmade) as they are the strongest folding knives in existence. Learn a basic opening or two and you have a knife that will stand up to ANYTHING.



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Waktasz!

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oOOo-(_)-oOOo
 
Don't worry guys, I wasn't going to nor do I flick knives open on a regular basis or in public (except with my POS S&W). And I am well aware that doing so causes unnecessary wear on even the most well made knife. I guess what I am trying to say is that I think occasionally flicking open a tactical knife (that includes some practice) should be considered normal, reasonable use. A quick snap open accompanied by the sound of a knife locking into place can be really intimidating. Plus, tactical knives are expected to endure hard use right?

[This message has been edited by kamagong (edited 05-16-2001).]
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kamagong:
Don't worry guys, I wasn't going to nor do I flick knives open on a regular basis or in public (except with my POS S&W). And I am well aware that doing so causes unnecessary wear on even the most well made knife. I guess what I am trying to say is that I think occasionally flicking open a tactical knife (that includes some practice) should be considered normal reasonable use. A quick snap open accompanied by the sound of a knife locking into place can be really intimdating. Plus, tactical knives are expected to endure hard use right? </font>
Click to expand...

You do have a point. You would think they would, but don't believe the hype. I had a bad experience with an Emerson Commander (2000 model), which after a few cycles of opening/closing (using the "wave" feature), the lock worked it's way clear across the blade tang to the point that it was almost making contact with the liner on the other side no matter how tight I adjusted the pivot screw, and there was noticable up/down play. This after only a week of owning the knife. Oh well...
 
Finding a folder that has a smooth action (by normal operation) would lead me to conclude that it could probably be flicked open. (Heck, I can do it with a Gerber Gator!)

However, different knives have different actions. The problem is when you use excessive ("hard") force on a knife that doesn't require it in order to be "flicked" open. Remember, a smooth knife probaby doesn't have a stiff "spring" to buffer the force of inertia.

It is a technique that you must master if you don't want to ruin the knife. Unfortunately, all too many folders are ruined this way, regardless of how well they are built.

Assuming that you are truly in an "emergency" situation (providing the only just cause for any such maneuver), you're probably going to flick it pretty hard, anyway! If it jams open, you can still cut with it. If it flies out of your hand, you just threw away your only hope.

As far a whether any knife is built to endure any test - talk with the manufacturer and ask them about their warranty. After all, who would be better to ask than someone who has first-hand knowledge on repairing their own products?
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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives


www.andersoncustomknives.com

[This message has been edited by Tom Anderson (edited 05-16-2001).]
 
One option I exercise is buying an training drone along with the tactical blade. This allows me to bang about with the trainer, while reserving the live blade for carry. Not only can you practice hard openings, but full speed striking (not sparring) will provide feedback on grip and techniques.

Perhaps one qualification of an tactical folding knife is the production of an operable blunt training drone.

The down side of course is the small choice of blades that have companion training blunts. Spyderco and Emerson knives are two companies that have drones for some of their live models. Furthermore, cost of system ownership is increased.

So far, my Gunting drone has outlasted my hands and wrists in terms of impact resistance.

The live blade gets checked, but not abused.

 
Kamagong -- I understand your question. Yes, one would think that a good tactical knife could handle the occasional snap opening w/out suffering irreparable damage. Can't help but wonder how many pairs of El Cid's trousers were ruined during the 1-week life of his Commander.

I know you said you aren't a habitual flicker. However, should you ever decide to change that, may I recommend the CRKT M16 series with the aluminum handles? First, the best ones have the Carson flipper. A way cool manner in which to open a knife quickly. Probably more important is the fact that the knife does not have any stop pins.

The ambidexrous thumb studs operate as the stop pins both open and closed. The knife is designed so that the studs come in contact with the aluminum handles to bring blade action to a halt. I suppose that the thumb studs could loosen or weaken, but there is always built in redundancy. I suppose that the steel studs could eventually wear a groove in the handle where they come to rest. But, I expect pigs will fly before such indentations are serious.

Just a thought,

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Asi es la vida

Bugs
 
You peaked my curiosity, so I went to a cutlery store and checked out the M16 and Gunting.

One nice thing about going to cutlery stores is you get the chance to see display models that have been handled by many people. It's a good way to find out how much a knife can take, especially if it's been on display for a while!
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The aluminum handled M16 had a lock that was almost completely over against the other scale. There were also two noticable wear marks where the thumb stud hit the handle and I could see a bit of distortion on the front edge of the lock. (The store owner asked if I wanted to see a "fresh one", but I declined.)

The Gunting was very difficult to open as compared to most other folders he had in the store. I actually had to fumble with it for about 3 seconds (I was timing it) before I had the blade fully deployed and locked. After obtaining permission from the store owner, I tried the knife in my pocket and found the hump occassionally caught on my clothing while trying to withdraw it rapidly.

Omitting the obvious factor that total deployment usually requires removing a folder from your pocket (most folks don't carry their folders in their hands all the time), my observation is that a smooth opening folder (once indexed to a secure position) can be opened in and average 0.8 seconds without "flicking" it.

I did this with several folders from various manufacturers and custom makers. Some had thumb studs, some had holes, and some had slots. Each folder was cycled an average of 30 times while my associate timed me with a stopwatch.

To me, 0.8 seconds isn't all that much time. You're probably going to spend more time fumbling to get the knife out of your pocket and positioned securely in your hand.

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I apologize to anyone who might think I am denouncing the performance of the knives mentioned by name. I like CRKT and Spyderco knives. After all, these were random samples.
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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives


www.andersoncustomknives.com
 
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